To be fair Mac that newspaper article i quoted saw such commentary as yours in the same light as I did. If they saw what I saw then I cannot be wrong. They and others must agree with me that your type of comment was a suggestion that the pope had said Jesus had sinned even though these were not your words. So yes I did give your comment careful consideration. I am sorry that you think I have turned your comment into anything other than what it was intended to be. I still believe I read it as intended and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. So yes I see what I have done. It was not meant to cause you offense but was just questioning and comnenting on your opinion as I and others saw it. I also see that you have not granted my request. I acknowledge your right to ignore me. I will not press you further. Sounds like you may burst if I do. Be at peace brother.
Oh well off to Church for morning mass. I hope I can still recognise it and it is not flying a rainbow flag. I hope I don't get told there how wonderful the Pope was on his plane ride and what a dirty rotten stuck in the mud old dinosaur I am. I am getting a little tired of it all.
I am not about to burst at all. I suspected you were not being genuine in post# 24 ...Oh that does not sound good. Did the pope say that Jesus had done something wrong? That Jesus had sinned? If so things are worse than I thought. I cant keep up with everything. And you knew exactly what was being discussed.
To be honest Booklady, it is not the homosexuals that concern me so much as our own clergy and Pope. I will pray for the Pope first I think. The perverts are what they are, doing what they do, I know where I stand with them; it is clergy who support them that worry me most. I know where I stand with homosexuals. It is our own clergy that have lost me. Talk about being stabbed in the back.
"This inclination, which is objectively disordered," Homosexuality is objectively disordered, to the point the Church has always barred men with such tendencies from Holy Orders. Must the Church apologize for this just discrimination? Should the Church, in your opinion, change this longstanding practice?
Not at all, Brian. Pope Francis is not asking for forgiveness for its long held view on this inclination. He is pointing out that we often judge homosexuals as sinners when they are not.
As someone who has known a large number of homosexuals (having worked in the performing arts), including a close family member (non-Christian), I fully support the Pope's remarks - as David has rightly said, he is essentially just repeating the Catechism -, though not necessarily the way in which they will be spun... Very careful discernment is called for here. We hopefully all agree that there can never be theological acceptance for homosexual acts: that is non-negotiable and a non-issue. It should be obvious to everyone that there are indeed forces within as well as outside the Church trying to alter this, and these need to be resisted firmly and unambiguously, especially as the argumentation offered is often insidious. However, homophobia is also a sad reality, as anyone who has taken the time to listen to the experience of those on the receiving end will know, and unfortunately Christians have not been without guilt historically in this respect. There is for example a deep tragedy in the fact that homosexuals have sometimes felt driven to suicide because of fear of condemnation from the 'Christian' community (which is a very different thing from conviction in the sense of the work of the Holy Spirit reveal our sin to us as the first step to change). The problem is that all too often the deep-seated hatred which homosexuals encounter essentially stems from a psychological aversion to difference, an aversion which can be observed in all societies (which naturally can also be directed towards Jews, gypsies, the mentally handicapped or any other identifiably different social group) and which is itself the result of our sinful human nature, even when it is given a theological veneer. Homophobia additionally often results from fear, from the inability to deal with the thought that at some point in one's life one may have had some of the same tendencies. The homosexual as object of hatred may represent something within ourselves which we cannot face. The carnage in Orlando may well have been a case of this mechanism. To the extent that collusion with unreconstructed homophobia represents a failure on the part of Christians to live the Gospel and an anti-witness to Christ, Pope Francis is absolutely right to apologize, and it should be noted that he mentioned other groups in this context as we are dealing with a more general principle. Yes, homosexual practice is sin, but we have a duty to engage constructively whenever possible with those homosexuals who are sincere about their search for God (and they do exist), however confused they may be and pressurized by the LGBT community into adopting a self-destructive lifestyle that is presented to them as a biological necessity. Which is a lie (I personally blame Sigmund Freud for much of the current dysfunctional thinking about human sexuality) and an insult to their dignity as human beings created in God's image and for whom Christ died. We need to exercise genuine compassion - which needs to be distinguished from legitimation - and while praying for these people's liberation from slavery to biological impulses which they have been effectively told that they must obey, accompany those of them who demonstrate genuine goodwill on their difficult and painful journey. Yes, they may fall on the way, but that is no less true of us ourselves, and we need to remember that.
Thank you for your frank and funny and honest retort Padraig. I must be living on a different planet. Not one of the Catholics I know want those things that you say the majority want. Or if they do I am not aware of their wishes. Even if they did want those things they would be on a hiding to nothing. If their wishes were granted there would no longer be a Catholic Church. A song comes to mind or at least a couple of lines of a song that I would like to sing to my Catholic Church "Don't go changing to try to please me. I love you just the way you are. " I love the old and the new, the Latin and the English, the men and the women.....I love the Apostles creed. I love the Holy Men of God who try to guide us through the storm and I am utterly disgusted and dillusioned with those who have deserted their sacred station and betrayed the trust of their charge. I will not name them but rather keep my eye on the Good Shepherd and those who follow in his way. I do not know what to say that will encourage you Padraig. You seem to have lost hope, at least in the church of today. While I am sure it will be torn down to its foundation I am also sure of its foundation. It is founded on Christ and it will be rebuilt on that same foundation. The new form it takes will be according to the intention of its Creator, Jesus, who is God from God. And its pillars will still be its eternal truths. What else could frame and support the one true church? Without these there is nothing. And the air that flows through this great renewed institution will still be the breath of the Holy Spirit. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created and though shalt renew the face of the earth. Mary is our mother. The Church is our mother. Can you imagine Jesus allowing his Mother to be seen in anything other than her finest attire and in the best light - the light of His Love. And this light will find its finest and clearest reflection in the Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart enthroned next to His Sacred Heart, Redeemer and Co-Redemptrix forever in heaven. And the eye that looks down on this renovated and rebuilt church will still be the living and loving eye of God Our Father. I do not know where all this is coming from or where it is going but I cannot suppress it. Behold I will make all things new says the Lord. And so He will. So take heart Padraig and wait upon the Lord. He will renew your strength. Keep walking and do not faint. He will raise you up on eagles wings far above those who would crush your spirit. Keep the faith. There are bad times ahead but the best is yet to come. You are loved beyond your wildest dreams.
You are right to be careful Padraig. One of the post conciliar documents refers to the " "exorbitant malice" in homosexuality. It should be given a wide berth. I bet there is a rainbow over your church. Don't let the bastards grind you down and don't let them steal the beauty of Gods creation. In all things give thanks.
I wish I could have posted Elvis "suspicious minds" but perhaps that would not have been appropriate. As I said. Be at peace brother.
Mac, how do you identify a post here. You call mine #24. Where do you find that number on this forum. It does not appear on my screen. Thanks.
Reading the Holy Fathers words on the issue of gays it is difficult to understand what he is really saying. I personally wish he would speak more clearly and give clearer support and direction on church teaching. In this country we are inundated with pro gay propaganda on a daily basis. Nobody is standing for the truth except a few lone voices but they are easily pushed to one side. I wish the Pope would speak clearly on the issue to hearten the faithful because we feel betrayed. I agree hatred of a group of people is sinful and we must pray for all trapped in these bondage's but it would help if that was said. I do get it that it is very important to try and walk the path with people dying of Aids to help them turn to God and know that no matter what God loves them and want's to have them with him. Unfortunately from what I am reading the need for repentance is not being made evident. Maybe I'm missing something. We seem to be in a state of constant confusion. Its a sign of the times.
Mary Rose While I agree that we are inundated with homosexual propaganda the pope has specifically said he holds no truck with their lobby which he sees as a serious priblem and that there are absolutely no grounds for recognising homosexual marriage and that homosexuals were to be given assistance to bring them back to normality. Thus he saw homosexuality as abnormal. I don't see what is unclear about this. If the pope spoke in the way you wish do you think it would do more good than harm. How do you think the world would react? Pope Pius XII was very careful how he spoke about Hitler. He never supported Hitler. Neither did he want to make things worse and endanger more lives. In the end he saved the lives of 860,000 Jews. Homosexuals were also incarcerated in concentration camps. Although there is little Point in telling homosexuals to repent if they don't believe they are sinning he has done so. They have a very powerful presence in the media and while the pope does not fear them neither does he want to give them reason to hate. Who knows what the backlash could be. We Catholics know it is wrong. What else do we need to know? We know from what he has said that the pope knows this too. He supports the description of homosexual acts as depraved and disordered and calls them back to chastity - that is a call to Repent. Why do people not accept that he has said this. It is not my place to convince others of this truth. They can see it for themselves. I have no wish to be a teacher. Too much responsibility. Too much at stake. I will leave it to good people like yuurself Mary Rose. Its too much for me. Peace be with you.
No, not true, in the least. In fact the Pope of the time, Pius xii, at the onset of the war wrote a severe anti Nazis Encyclical called , 'Mit brennender Sorge', which just about burnt their brownshirted ears of them. he did not mince words at all but got torn right into the wretches: 'The encyclical condemned breaches of the 1933 Reichskonkordat agreement signed between the German Reich and the Holy See.[4] It condemned "pantheistic confusion", "neopaganism", "the so-called myth of race and blood", and the idolizing of the State. It contained a vigorous defense of the Old Testament out of belief that it prepared the way for the New.[5] The encyclical states that race is a fundamental value of the human community which is necessary and honorable but condemns the exaltation of race, or the people, or the state, above their standard value to an idolatrous level.[6] The encyclical declares "that man as a person possesses rights he holds from God, and which any collectivity must protect against denial, suppression or neglect."[7] National Socialism, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party are not named in the document. The term "Reich Government" is used.[8] According to Ventresca, Cardinal Faulhaber, who wrote a first draft, was adamant that the encyclical should be careful in both its tone and substance and should avoid explicit reference to Nazism or the Nazi Party.[9] Historian William Shirer wrote that the document accused the regime of sowing the "tares of suspicion, discord, hatred, calumny, of secret and open fundamental hostility to Christ and His Church".[10] According to Scholder, the leader of the German Bishops conference, Cardinal Bertram, sought to blunt the impact of the encyclical by ordering that critical passages should not be read outloud.[11]'
Even better, bless him too. They got tore into the Nazis even earlier than I thought. Poor guy must be fairly twirling in his grave at what's going on today.
What you say Peter is true, but inconclusive. If we are to apologize to gays for being Catholic and the unchanging truth that Sodomy is a grave sin, then we need to also apologize for our Holy Scriptures as well, which speaks way more boldly towards those who support the grave sin of homosexuality. Nothing short of God apologizing for burning the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah will suffice then. I have relatives and friends who are gay. My best friend in the 80's died of Aids. I am not aware of any Catholic ever persecuting them or any other gay. However, at the same time, none that I know of, have ever apologized for what the Church has always taught on this issue nor should we/they. I have not seen one instant in my small circle of life where a practicing Catholic has been in the face of a homosexual about their behavior, so what can we conclude about Pope Francis words on this subject, accept that he one again is throwing the baby out with the bath water and seems to want to chide the whole Church for what perhaps only .0005 % of Church members may have done.
