"Francis has been totally orthodox..can only be faulted by faulty reading"

No, it is easier and better to follow the Pope and the bishops united to him, just as Jesus wants.

 

Can you not address the argument instead of attacking the 'person' all of the time?

 

I responded to this point a few posts ago. Allow me to copy the reply (to Dolours) again here:

Stating that I don't understand why Brian doesn't just accept he is a protestant is not an attack, it is a serious question. You refer to the three pillars of the teaching authority of the Church. The problem is that the first two rely on the third. And the rejection of the third by the protestants has led to their difficulties. Brian is following their mistake.

And while I'm responding to you I will respond to Brian's complaint that some of us are not addressing the propositions of the 'esteemed theologians'. My response is 'why should we?' These matters need considerable knowledge and understanding and even if we had these, we are still in danger of getting things wrong due to pride. Fortunately, Jesus has given us a Church that will and is dealing with all these matters in a beautiful way. Sadly some do not accept this.

​

 

You accuse Brian of being a protestant. I think you owe him an apology.

It is so sad that you have taken to the easy route of personal abuse.

 

Obedience is owed no man whose words violate the teaching of the Church; obedience to Truth is above following even a pope.

 

I have explained my position above and you are choosing to ignore it. Secondly, to call someone a protestant is not a criticism! Protestants are all members of Christ's Church although they reject certain Catholic beliefs. May we all be ONE!

 

It is an attack, David, because it infers that Brian is heretical because he finds fault with a document that, depending on which Cardinal is right, may or may not be paving the way to changing Church teaching on marriage and the suitable disposition of Catholics to receive the Blessed Eucharist. Since the Pope hasn't declared Cardinal Muller or Cardinal Burke to be Protestants because they disagree with Cardinal Schonborn, I think that it isn't asking too much for you to give Brian the benefit of the doubt.

On the matter of the three pillars, are you saying that they can contradict each other and still be in line with the Faith handed down by Jesus through the Apostles?

So, are you saying that Brian and the theologians are Protestant because your lack of knowledge and understanding means that you cannot answer the issues raised?

 

Call me a protestant and I will box your ears.

For us Catholics in Ireland it is a real insult.

(By the way you have not provided any positive proof that Brian is a protestant).

 

They just abide by Alinky's rule #12 routinely to hide the fact that they're over their head and cannot make a substantive rebuttal of these theologians' points.

 

L.T.T. W.

The first few days (i joined the forum) i read the thread and what nonsense. Giving a play by play message with silly language. Like if God the Spirit would really waste His time. A few times, i would go in...say my peace, then i would dust my sandals and move on. Why? Because it is useless to try change peoples hearts with constant badgering. I think people kinda knew it was nonsense but the hard core believers kept the dream alive.

Whats my point

My main issue with the vision is that the nonsense would lead souls away from God and the church. That was my biggest argument. So every now and then i would challenge the powers that be. At the end, the fake visionaries pride got too big...they thought they could actually foretell the future. That was the end of L.T.T.W..

I think, we sometime fall in love of a vision or agenda...and put that above Our Lord Jesus Christ and Our Holy Mother Church. We keep trying to find the magic on the outside, when it is actually in us. I understand why many of us come to this forum. Its that little dream of finding the magic. But if we did find the magic, we might not like what it entails. My spirituality starts on the inside. Many seem to start on the outside. Thats not saying its right or wrong but the mystical is closer then one thinks.

May Gods Will be Done

 

I will post for the third time my response on this:

You refer to the three pillars of the teaching authority of the Church. The problem is that the first two rely on the third. And the rejection of the third by the protestants has led to their difficulties. Brian is following their mistake.​

 

The Protestant heresy was about far more than exchanging indulgences for contributions to building St. Peter's. Brian is drawing attention to apparent errors in a badly written document that the Church has not declared to be infallible. He isn't rejecting the Church's teaching authority.

If a Pope and some Bishops in union with him were to publish a document saying that although Jesus has two natures it is ok for Catholics who believe and publicly declare that Jesus had only one nature, to receive Communion if their Bishop agrees that the priest can allow it in the internal forum, would it be Protestant to request that the document be corrected?

 

Don't lose heart, Brian. Although cash rich, Christianity in Germany is on life support spiritually. The cash will dry up, hopefully before their brand of cultural colonisation damages the growing Church in Africa and Asia. The safe, legal and rare excuse for Communion for people in "irregular situations" might not catch on in regions where family still means something and new life is a blessing. Western influence in the Church will wane with dwindling numbers producing fewer vocations and smaller contributions. It might take a few generations before the tide turns, but the Holy Spirit will sort out the Church - in God's time, not ours. It won't be pretty for us but if there are more like Cardinal Sarah the future of the Church is secure.

 

Hi Quis ut Deus,

I came in here and was accused of spying..which I am not doing. Why would anyone spy on a forum like this.. and whatever for? If there is a difference of opinion I believe it should be stated in a polite manner. But anyway now I have just had a public warning for absolutely doing nothing wrong. I could end up with an inferior complex. Never mind we are all brothers and sisters in Christ

 

This is my first comment on this forum but I have lurked for some time and I noticed David's fine reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I thought it might be interesting to clarify the position of Fr. John Hardon, S.J. in an article from "The Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association." Fr. Hardon noted that the association: "... is a gift of Divine Providence. I heartily approve the goal of this association. It perfectly reflects the mind of Pope John Paul II in promoting devotion to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar..." The site for this association has an extensive archive of the great Fr. Hardon's writings.

As one can see, despite whatever reservations Fr. Hardon may have had initially, he most certainly endorsed the CCC as did Pope St. John Paul II in his potent reference to it, "a singular gift of Providence."

A Gift of God to the Church:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

The supreme Shepherd of the whole Church refers to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a “singular gift of Providence”. The very reason for the existence of the Church, to evangelize, to teach. “Teach them to carry out everything that I have commanded you”. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, takes abundantly from Holy Scripture and the inexhaustible apostolic tradition of the Church gathers into one volume the accumulated doctrinal richness which constitutes the patrimony of the Church. Pope John Paul II, “The publication of this text should be considered surely among the most outstanding events in the recent history of the Church”. In the Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum refers to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as a catechism prepared in the spirit and light of the Second Vatican Council. Guarding the deposit of Faith is the mission which the Lord entrusted to His Church and which she fulfills in every age. The principal task entrusted to the Council by Pope John XXIII was to guard and present better the precious deposit of Christian doctrine.

Pope John Paul II and all those who had to carry on their shoulders the tremendous responsibility of safeguarding the divine deposit of revealed truth against all attempt to substitute the divine truths with human perceptions sometimes without malice and in some cases even in the belief that they are doing this for the welfare of humanity. From the beginnings of the Church, St. Paul had to admonish Timothy: “Guard the deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” To be able to perform the duty of guarding the deposit of Faith one needs the “help of the Holy Spirit”. The Lord instructed the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit whom “the Father will send in my name, who will instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I told you.”…”and know that I am with you always, until the end of the world”.

There will always be attempts to disregard the divine teaching, to look for teachers who will rather please men than God, false prophets who will come in shepherds’ appearance. I charge you to preach the Word, to stay with this task whether convenient or inconvenient, correcting, reproving, appealing, constantly teaching and never losing patience. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but, following their own desires, will surround themselves with teachers who will tickle their ears. They will stop listening to the truth and will wander off to fables. As for you, be steady and self-possessed; put up with hardship, perform your work as evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

Pope John Paul II, taking a hard look on the situation of morality in the world today realistically calls the world’s attention, but most specially the Bishops of the Church, it is no longer a matter of limited and occasional disregard for the real principles of morality but a systematic and overall rejection of traditional moral norms. “A new situation has come about within the Christian community itself, the spread of numerous doubts and objections of a human and psychological, social and cultural, religious and even properly theological nature, with regard to the Church’s moral teachings. It is no longer a matter of limited and occasional dissent, but of an overall and systematic calling into question of traditional moral doctrine on the basis of certain anthropological and ethical presuppositions. At the root of these presuppositions is the detaching human freedom from its essential and constitutive relationship to truth. The natural law the validity of its precepts if rejected, certain moral Church teachings are found simply unacceptable, and the Magisterium intervening in matters of morality only in order to ‘exhort consciences’ and to ‘propose values’ and each individual will independently make his or her decisions and life choices.” (Veritatis Splendor 4).

Pope John Paul II took the needed steps that led to the preparation, completion, approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with a special Commission of Cardinals and Bishops. p 9.

There existed a tendency to test the truth by popular surveys, which are not entirely free from manipulation seems to have entered the area of Church doctrine and practice, an attempt to split the unity of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Ambiguity in doctrine where there was compete unity before, leads to doubt the credibility of the Church herself, doubt leads to confusion and ultimately to indifference, which leads to giving up the faith that does not guide anymore.

Christ gave the apostles a final command – to make disciples of all nations and to teach them to observe all that He had commanded. “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes down on you; then you are to be My witnesses…, yes, even to the ends of the earth”. Christ’s command is ours today.

The Catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference test for teaching Catholic doctrine. This gift which the heavenly Father grants to His children offering them through this Catechism the possibility of knowing Him better.

The Catechism is given to pastors and the Christian faithful it is addressed to the whole Church. It is to be received in a spirit of communion and are to use it assiduously (constantly) in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life.

The Catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine. Any Catholic wishing to have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church should be helped to have this right, nay duty, satisfied. It is intended for the faithful who have the capacity to read, understand and assimilate it in their Christian life.

The Catechism is serve to educate in the faith that the Catholic Church professes and proclaims. It is therefore a gift for everybody. It is a service of the Holy See to the whole Church. It is not a question of adapting to the circumstances of the times, but of fidelity to Christ’s will for His Church.

To the elders among you is to be revealed to God’s flock is in your midst; give it a shepherd’s care. Watch over it willingly as God would have you do, not under constraint; and not for shameful profit either, but generously. Be examples to the flock, not lording it over those assigned to you.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is offered to every individual in search for a saving Truth, who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

Conclusion: With certainty and unity in Catholic doctrine shall replace the state of ambiguity and doubt and even unjustifiable diversity, through the use of this Catechism of the Catholic Church.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Catechism/Catechism_001.htm

Correction: I just recalled: I actually did post once before.

 

Yes, Glenn,

It is a great comfort that that which is false tends to be exposed after a while, whilst that which is true abides.

We see this even in the secular world with politicians. Their lies do indeed tend to catch them out.

It reminds me of the words of the Scots poet Robbie Burns.


'Oh, what a tangled web we weave: When first we practise to deceive!'

I suppose it is an impossible thing to wish for Glenn, but I would love to hear about things like contemporary stigmatics. But I suppose that would be to awkward.

 

Welcome Janet. Things have gone bat s*** crazy here. BrianK doesn't think for himself. He's padraigs lap dog. Anything Padraig says, he's right there to agree with him. David is just a thorn in Brian's side. It's quite amusing.
Brain will tell you allllllll about his near death experience.
Padraig has become paranoid.
The end.

 

I am MOST grateful to you, 'wee one', for posting this. I was totally unaware of it and had assumed from 'other' comments that Fr Hardon had different views on the Catechism! It is impossible to overestimate the importance of the Catechism both for Catholics but also the wider Christian community. It is one of the greatest gifts from St John Paul II's pontificate and it shouldn't be forgotten that Cardinal Ratzinger oversaw the editing.

For those who may not be aware, the Catechism is available in very usable form on the internet, first from the Vatican website at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

But also at the following website which contains a really excellent search facility:
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/catechism/

 

Having attending Father Hardon's men's retreats in the 80's and early 90's, he told us he was on the commission to help develop the catechism. He also developed his own Catholic Catechism in the 1980's at the request of the Vatican. It is still available on Amazon and is a treasure for anyone's library.

 

I've only just noticed your post Dolours..Thank you for your nice welcome.