CONCERNING OBJECTIONS TO CHURCH'S TEACHING ON RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION BY DIVORCED AND REMARRIED

Out of pure curiosity, Dolours, I did a search of the forum and it produced a total of 45 of your posts that contained the word 'Schonborn'...

But I accept that maybe not in all of them were you expressing your opinion of him.

 

That's a lot of trouble to go to David. Were they spread over numerous threads? I've mentioned his name a few times already on this thread. Perhaps in future I should refer to him as Cardinal YouKnowWho.

 

I copied and posted below. Forgive the spelling, when I wrote it out I was on my Kindle and should have double checked it.
I'm going to copy and paste my experience here. I wrote it out years ago to a friend on Facebook who wanted to hear it:


Carmel333Archangels
I had to send this to someone as a favor for a holy person, so I am just going to copy and paste the first part of my apparition. You'll notice Jesus gave me a huge warning about adultry, and coming to Him in that state, so my message from Him has been mostly regarding the sacrament of Marriage. Here is my dialogue with her:

o Hi Tracy! Of course I'll tell you. Not sure how much of the story/apparition you want to hear, but I'll start by giving you a brief intro. In Oct 1996 I found out my Dad who was in his 50s had terminal cancer, and at the same time that my husband of 7 years was having an affair with a girl on his volley ball team. I was not at all religious, a fallen away cradle catholic, but started praying the rosary for my marriage, begging Mary to help me. I told her I'd pray it every day for the rest of my life if she would reconcile our marriage. In Feb 1997 Joe left me for this woman and I was already having demonic/ghostly experiences in my house, which both me and Joe had blamed on my 1st fiance who had died in a car accident right before I met Joe. So I was scared to death to be alone, grieving, in a black hole, and apparently Mary would not or could not help me. I decided to commit suicide. I only had one night to do it too because the next day my husband was coming to pick up his things including his handgun.

o Now looking back I can see that those demons that had split our marriage were egging me on that night, as I'm a pretty rational person, and had already been through extreme grief when Jay was killed so I knew I would eventually be alright. I remember saying out loud sitting there with the gun in my hand "wait...if I commit suicide I'll go to hell!" But then I figured that if there were a God He would have helped already, and that in death there would finally be peace, and nothingness. But just in case, I kneeled down by my bed where I was sitting holding the gun, and said "Lord, I know You don't really exist, but if you do, please don't condemn me for this. Please make it like I was just never born. I can't take this anymore....."

o Immediately a beam of golden light came right down through my roof and into me, and filled me with such peace I could have died of joy! I KNEW finally God had heard me and had heeled me, and I then knew that no matter what happened between me and Joe I would be ok. I got down on my knees and praised and thanked God all night it seemed LOL. The next night I was still thanking and praising and I realized that I wanted to be a servant of God and live my life for Him, so I said, with my whole heart "What can I do for you Lord?"

o Jesus appeared directly in front of me, glorious! beautiful! and dressed in light, and purple and scarlet robes and said these exact words to me, and then disappeared: "Love thy husband". Well after I got over the wow part of it a bit, I pondered the words and was NOT happy about them. Now that I was feeling better my first thoughts were to go back to Church, get an annulment, and God would help me find a GOOD husband. Clearly, I was still only thinking of myself

o So I pondered and thought about this for the next 24 hours, and decided I hadn't really seen Jesus at all, and that since the Church gave everyone anullments it seemed, and everyone in the protestant churches were divorced and re-married and they were fine, why did I have to do this terrible thing, like continue to love my husband. He obviously didn't love me! So I went to my prayer before bed that night and again thanked the Lord for this peace, as I could still feel it like a caress, and begged him not to take it away, and then told Him I didn't really think I'd seen Him the night before (I'd never even heard of anyone having an apparition of Jesus, only of Mary, so I thought I was just so worn down from grief that my mind was playing tricks on me)

o And so I told Him all these things, and how I was still young, and wanted a good husband and children, and how I would do really well this time and make God proud! and I WOULD love this new husband He found for me very much etc.. etc.. Jesus then appeared again to me in all His beautiful Glory, and I almost died on the spot of joy! I realized that He was God (I'd only thought of Him as the son of God before that, don't know why) and that I really didn't want any human or husband at all, only Jesus! I tried to touch Him, but He stood back, and said these words to me exactly "Love thy husband, as I have loved you!" and He was angry with me I could tell, as much as I could tell that He loved me more than His own life, and then He took me through my whole life, and showed me who He had always been right there with me, and how I had ignored Him, and never even bothered to turn and look or smile at Him or thank Him for anything!

o He told me alot while I was with Him that night, it seemed like the whole night! And I asked him questions. The first thing He told me is that if I filled for divorce or annulment, I would be open to the gates of hell, for the mortal sin of adultry. He filled my heart with knowledge about Himself, and His holy Catholic Church, and told me that Satan's last efforts against Him were to break up every valid marriage on earth, and that almost 90 % of the people going to hell in this age was because of the sin of adultry, and many did not even think they were in sin because of the new teachings in alot of churches.

o He said that marriage was a ifelong contract in which God directly signed with the woman and man (so there are actually three signatures on the marriage contract) and that if one leaves, the other two are still there. He told me what a valid marriage was, and I realized then that, yes, me and Joe had a valid marriage, but also realized that in many cases I had heard of, the Church had given annulments to valid marriages! In fact, VERY FEW marriages are NOT valid if they are of free will, both parties never been married at all before, and, intending to be faithful. So I said "if the Catholic Church has the authority to do this, and even if they do it wrongly, You must honor that, must You not? He said that they would still go to hell. I said but why? Don't you then honor the annument's if they are wrong but the Church hands them out? He said that He does honor them, but the people are still in the state of adultry, because He judges by the motives of the heart, and these people had adultry in their hearts. If they got an anullument, and the innocent spouse then thought that they were also free, and committed adultry, that they were also open to hell, and that the guilty spouse would have to pay for the loss of that soul too.

o And He said that when we marry, we are bound spiritually to that person, and in the physical body also, and that each of us was just as responsible for our spouse's soul, as we were for our own. And then He showed me thousands of men, with such beautiful souls it took my breath away! and He said "tell me which of these souls is not diserving of your love for life?" and I said "none Lord! They are all so beautiful and loving! But what about men who are not good, and beat their wives etc?" And He said " all these souls you see were left by their wives because off all the valid reasons you speak of"

 

Gosh, Carmel, it was your final sentence that whipped my head around.

I have had such anger at the men in my family. Seven out of eight have left their wives for other women and that includes what my father did to my mother. They also left the Catholic Church. I love them all and we have forgiven each other for past animosities and judgments but this residual hurt is buried in the background. I really do believe that Jesus values each soul as a priceless creation of uncomparable beauty and I'm grateful that I still have the opportunity to repair and make amends for my sins so that I might someday have a beautiful soul.

Thank you for sharing your story.

 

“Amoris Laetitia”

• 
  
  
  • ineffective
  • incorrect
  • ineffectual

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have started in Matthew 16:18 when Christ supposedly appointed Peter as the first Pope. Jesus Christ is our High Priest. You will read in Hebrews 6:19-20 that Jesus Christ, after His resurrection, is High Priest "after the order of Melchizedek.

During the days of Abraham, approximately four thousand years ago there was a ruler named Melchizedek presiding over a city called Salem, (later called Jerusalem). He was King of Salem and Priest of God Most High. It is most important that we understand that he held both these offices.The two offices are a pattern for our concept of "Church and state.
Melchizedek was a real person who lived during the time of Abraham about 2,000 B.C. He was a righteous and Godly leader over a very special piece of real estate, the ancient city of Salem, the city of God's Peace, later to be known as Jerusalem. He was an early priest-king and in the manner of many early leaders of those times. He presided over both the religion and the politics of his city. The Order of Melchizedek has two offices or ordained authorities of operation here on earth, those being a kingdom and a priesthood.

Those who are truly in the family of Abraham will recognize and respond to their Messiah as King and High Priest of their lives. And they will voluntarily and out of their heart give Him a tenth of all that comes to them.The Holy City is Jerusalem belongs to the Kingdom and the High Priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek. Accordingly it should never be divided by presumptuous world leaders or profaned by godless pagans.

The Order of Melchizedek will be seen in Christ when He returns to this earth as the Messiah. There will be an apocalyptic conflict centered around Jerusalem as He returns. And why will this be happening? In the latter days the Holy City will be trampled by raging heathen nations. (See Psalm 2) The Holy People will enter into Great Tribulation during this very same time period (happening today Vatican ll !) When that happens there will be a Messianic intervention. At the close of this age our coming Messiah will be unveiled in all His glory in the apocalypse and He will deliver Jerusalem at Armageddon.

He will smash the armies gathered against His Holy City of Jerusalem. There is no doubt about it. The Messiah's Second Coming will be decisive.
King David, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote a song announcing the reign of the coming Messiah empowered by God the Father to rule as
"... a priest forever according to the Order of Melchizedek"!

For 40 years, Almighty God, except, of course, in those faithful traditional Roman Catholics homes; has not been properly worshipped and wont until the Traditional Mass is restored and the Novus Ordo Mass eradicated, along with those who participated in the New Mass’s be condemned.

Psalm 110Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
110 I will praise thee, O Lord, with my whole heart; in the council of the just: and in the congregation.

2 Great are the works of the Lord: sought out according to all his wills.

3 His work is praise and magnificence: and his justice continueth for ever and ever.

4 He hath made a remembrance of his wonderful works, being a merciful and gracious Lord:

5 He hath given food to them that fear him. He will be mindful for ever of his covenant:

6 He will shew forth to his people the power of his works.

7 That he may give them the inheritance of the Gentiles: the works of his hands are truth and judgment.

8 All his commandments are faithful: confirmed for ever and ever, made in truth and equity.

9 He hath sent redemption to his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever. Holy and terrible is his name:

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. A good understanding to all that do it: his praise continueth for ever and ever.

 

Carmel, I don't know what to say other than praise be our Lord Jesus Christ forever and ever.

Thank you so much for sharing this with us. It brought a lump to my throat.

 

I would like to echo Dolours words - thank you Carmel for sharing. It brought tears to my eyes. Our God is amazing!

 

While it is true that a lot of incorrect things happened after Vatican 11, mostly they did not happen because of Vatican 11?

You said "The Eucharist is the very heart of God'' then read below

Douay-Rheims Bible
The eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken diligently.

If it was not clear from the beginning, it is certainly clear now, from the evidence of fifty years or more of the Modernist Vatican II Council, that the Novus Ordo service, which Ratzinger and his co-horts in 2007 officially declared to be the "Ordinary" Rite of the New Order sect, even in the words of its advocates, is based on the errors of Protestantism, Freemasonry, and even paganism. Some may try to excuse themselves by saying they are happy and fullfilled by attending, but the fact of the matter is The Novus Ordo service, in any version, must be rejected as clearly unCatholic, sacrilegious, irreverent, scandalous, blasphemous, idolatrous, and conclusively invalid!

For something resulting from a thing that is not genuine; a forgery or shamot according with truth or fact; incorrect; is a
betrayal of trust; a deceptive action of nature;behaviour that deceives against people to whom one has an obligation is Treachery consigned to damnation and an ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication!

APOSTOLICAE CURAE
Apostolic Letter
On the Nullity of Anglican Orders
Promulgated September 18, 1896, by Pope Leo XIII

The most important prayer that the Church offers to Almighty God after the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Officium Divinum, or Divine Office, contained in a liturgical book called the Breviarium Romanum, or Roman Breviary. In fact, the Mass is part of the Divine Office, and they are so intertwined in the public liturgy of the Church that one is really incomplete without the other.




God Bless You Too

 

The Novus Ordo service, in any version, must be rejected as clearly unCatholic, sacrilegious, irreverent, scandalous, blasphemous, idolatrous, and conclusively invalid!


For something resulting from a thing that is not genuine; a forgery or shamot according with truth or fact; incorrect; is a
betrayal of trust; a deceptive action of nature;behaviour that deceives against people to whom one has an obligation isTreachery consigned to damnation and an ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication!

Solady

I am shocked; if the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid then the Blessed Sacrament does not exist in our church.

Saint John Paul 11 said the Novus Ordo Mass. I know the Blessed Sacrament in our church is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in that little white host. He has shown me enough to know without any doubt that He is there.

I truly appreciate your zeal, but nothing you have said will persuade me.

God Bless

 

Carmel333, beautiful story!!! This story is yours? Have you reconciled with your husband?

 

Yes this is my story. I have not reconciled with my husband, as he said he thinks I am better off without him, although I have made it clear I love him and am willing to reconcile. Both of us remained single all these years. Me because of the obvious and I'm not sure exactly why he did. I spend my free time praying for him and trying to obey Jesus to "love my husband" as best as I can. He is ALWAYS there for me if I need anything, and of course now my main concern is that he gets converted before he dies. I became a 3rd Order Carmelite in 2001. Shortly after this apparition in 1997 I returned to confession and the Catholic Church, started daily mass and in 1998 learned the Divine Office to do. By 2001 I had joined the 3rd Order Carmelites and follow their rule as I felt so called to Contemplative Prayer. I still have locutions pretty regularly, although after the apparition I had daily locutions for about the next 9 months, after which I underwent a dark night. I didn't know what was happening to me until someone gave me a book about St Teresa of Avila called "The Fire Within" which I highly recommend. That's how I found Carmelite Spirituality and of course part of becoming a 3rd Order is studying all of St Teresa's books on prayer and also John of the Cross. Oh and also forgot to mention I DID confess the apparition to a priest and was able to get a Carmelite Priest to advise me for a while. SO important to be very obedient and in a state of grace when dealing with apparitions and locutions! The devil can be so deceiving if he sees you are at all open to it.

 

but that is not my place,but it is my duty to speak the truth

We are upon this earth in order that we may glorify God, and so win for ourselves eternal happiness. Christ says, “So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father Who is in heaven” (Matt. v. 16). We are bound in our words and actions to let men know that we are Roman Catholics. It is by the open profession of our faith that we help others (as we see from the above words of Our Lord) We are not bound always and on all occasions to confess our faith, but only when the honor due to God, or the edification due to our neighbor requires it. Our faith is so holy a thing that it must be spoken of with great discretion and prudence. The sacrifice of the Mass is a living renewal of the sacrifice of the cross, for in the Mass, as upon the cross, Christ immolates Himself. In the sacrifice of the Mass all the sacrifices made by Our Lord are also renewed.
He commits still a greater sin who destroys the spiritual life of one's neighbor, either by tempting him to do evil or by giving scandal.
we can do nothing without Gods help. our sufficiency is from God (2 Cor...iii. 5) as Saint Thomas Aquinas said, we are, since the fall, like a sick man who cannot leave his bed without help. For example; a man cannot work without light; thus too he cannot do any good work without light; thus too he cannot do any good work without the light of the Holy Ghost. the earth does not bring forth flowers, but rather the sun by means of the earth. Man cannot ascribe the merits of his good works to himself, but to the grace of God. With the help of the Holy Ghost we can carry out the most difficult works.
Hence the sacred Council of Trent, treating of the pastors of souls, lays down as their first and chief duty that of instructing the faithful. It prescribes that they must speak to the people on the truths of religion; Christ in order that the faithful may be no longer as children tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, but that “doing the truth in charity they may in all things grow up in Him who is the head, Christ.” (Eph. iv. 14, 15.)

 

Can you explain in your own words, leaving out long quotations, what exactly you believe makes the Novus Ordo invalid? Is it that Mass is not in Latin? Is it because the priest faces the congregation? Is it the participation of lay ministers of the word and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion? Is it because some altar servers are girls? Is it because the congregation joins in prayers like the Creed and responses to the Psalms? These are not sufficient reasons to invalidate a Mass, so there must be something else that has led you to that conclusion.

The vast majority of Masses I attend are very reverential. Some homilies are questionable but a bad homily wouldn't render a Mass invalid. Although my memory is sketchy, there were abuses in the pre-Vatican 11 days. I'm sure that there have always been abuses, the types of abuse changing with the times. Lack of respect generally in society is reflected in lack of reverence at Holy Mass but you can't blame Vatican 11 for that.

Edited to remove the question "Is it the terminology used at the Consecration" because that could render the Mass invalid, although I don't know enough to determine what would be invalid words of Consecration.

 

It would be best if SOLADY gives her background.

Sedevacantist?

 

The Eucharist is the very heart of God!

Our Lord fulfilled this promise at the Last Supper; He changed the bread into His body, and the wine into His blood and gave it to the apostles (Matt. xxvi. 28).
The body of Christ under the appearance of bread, and the blood of Christ under the appearance of wine, is called the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.
Our Lord commanded the apostles: “Do this for a commemoration of Me” (Luke xxii. 19). On this account the priest pronounces exactly the same words over the bread and wine which Our Lord uttered at the Last Supper, thereby changing the bread into the body, and the wine into the blood of Christ.

The novus ordo mass evidently,
is the invention of a liturgical commission, the Consilium, whose guiding light was Fr. Annibale Bugnini (made an archbishop in 1972 for his services), and which also included six Protestant experts. Fr. Bugnini (principal author of Vatican II’s Sacrosanctum Concilium) had his own ideas on popular involvement in the liturgy (La Riforma Liturgia, A. Bugnini, Centro Liturgico Vincenziano, 1983), while the Protestant advisors had their own heretical ideas on the essence of the Mass.

Archbishop Lefebvre definitely agreed when he wrote: The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules ...is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith." (An Open Letter to Confused Catholics, p. 29)
the indefectibility of the Church does not prevent the pope personally from promoting defective and modernist rites in the Latin Rite of the Church. Moreover, the Novus Ordo Missae: was not properly promulgated (and therefore does not have force of law.
the old Roman Mass (aka, the Tridentine or traditional Latin Mass) was not abolished or superseded in the constitution Missale Romanum, hence in virtue of the of Quo Primum (which de jure [by law] is still the liturgical law and therefore the official Mass of the Roman Rite), it can always be said (principle 19),
and lastly, the constitution Missale Romanum does not engage the Church's infallibility.*

 

[QUOTE="Mac, post: 145722, member: 4102"
]It would be best if SOLADY gives her background.

Sedevacantist?[/QUOTE]
http://novusordowatch.org/start-here/

 

http://novusordowatch.org/start-here/[/QUOTE]
I read as far as the part about the Popes which gave us Vatican 11 not being true Popes before accepting that I had wasted my time reading it. I should have stopped when I read "sacred Latin tongue". Jesus spoke Aramaic. Much of the bible was in Greek, yet Latin is the "sacred" language.

There are some aspects of the new Mass that I could do without, but hearing Mass in a language I understand is a keeper for me. I remember when everything was in Latin, including the readings. People didn't even know which passages from the Gospel, which epistles, etc. were being read unless they had a missal and could flick through the pages fast enough to keep up with the priest. Even if they had a missal, some older members of the congregation wouldn't have been able to read it in any language. That resulted in people taking out their rosary beads and saying the Rosary all through Mass, pausing only for the Consecration. Latin might be sacred to you but Jesus managed without it and if the vernacular was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.

There was nothing particularly reverend when priests galloped through the readings because nobody could understand them anyway. There were times when Mass lasted no more than 20 or 25 minutes if there was no homily and not many people receiving Communion. People often arrived late and left early because their Sunday obligation was fulfilled provided they were present for certain parts of the Mass. As far as I can remember, that included the Gospel reading, the Offertory, the Consecration and the Priest's Communion as well as the last reading from Sacred Scripture, which people often referred to as "the last Gospel" although it could have been any reading from scripture because it was in Latin and nobody spoke or understood Latin unless they had attended an expensive private school. One advantage of Latin was that Mass was the same in whichever European country we travelled to but most people couldn't afford to travel and anyway it only meant that we were just as detached from the proceedings abroad as we were at home.

Now, Latin may well be a beautiful, precise language, but that doesn't make it sacred and so long as the bread and wine are consecrated by a validly ordained priest acting in persona Christi and using the correct words of consecration defined by the Church, transubstantiation happens. I won't be responding to any more posts calling into question the validity of the Mass, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John XX111 or his successors. I can gripe with the best of 'em when it comes to abuses at Mass these days but questioning the validity is out of the question for me.

 

http://novusordowatch.org/start-here/[/QUOTE]
I take that as a yes. You are Sede.

 

I take that as a yes. You are Sede.[/QUOTE]


thats a new order word, i do not belong to the new order