We had communists and Nazi's during the World Wars. Persecutions of both Jews and Christians. We have a New World Order philosophy like that of pagan Rome, and today's Jews follow it. The persecutions of Christians all over the Middle East is history repeating itself. I don't see Pope Francis teaming up with the military industrial complex in favor of these wars. I just don't see a Pope as the False Prophet. Not even the current one.
I think the Book of the Apocalypse refers to Nero. I also think it refers to End Time events. God cannot be put in a box. The Bible is full of "types" and revelations that can have meaning in more than one way. Just because one is true does not exclude the other from being true as well.
Byron, No one is denying Christ is King, are they? I hope not. Parts of the Book of Revelation may have occurred already and history does repeat itself but many parts of the Book of Revelation have not occurred yet. My explanation was meant to demonstrate that it appears that at least one of the beasts is a man. In addition, it appears that two of the beasts are men in the following scripture and since no one is aware of anyone being thrown into the pool of fire alive, this appears to be a future event. Maybe it has some other meaning that we don't understand yet, idk. Of course, the pieces that we cannot guess on are those that are contained in our Catechism. Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image. These two were cast alive into the pool of fire, burning with brimstone. In addition, I suggested that if the beast and false prophet are both thrown into the pool of fire together and if the beast is in fact the false messiah (the Antichrist) then it is possible that the false prophet could be a pope. If many people accept a man as a messiah, then imo, it makes sense that a future pope may follow this false messiah and hence be the false prophet. I did not suggest that Pope Francis is the false prophet. I believe that the Antichrist is someone who is still unknown because I am pretty certain that this verse John 5:43 is speaking of the Jews not accepting Christ as their messiah and this scripture states they will accept a man in the future as their messiah. I don't believe that Nero fits this criteria because the Jews are waiting for their messiah to bring complete peace, they will "beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into spades", Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into spades: nation shall not take sword against nation: neither shall they learn war any more. This is appears to be a future event which is probably directly related to the Book of Revelation, imho. In addition, the scriptures related to the two witnesses also seems to have not occurred yet and of course, the scriptures related to Escahton are future events. I suppose that the Church has not approved the writings of Taylor Marshall or have they? I think it is best to offer his writings for discussion and not post them as if they are part of the Church's teachings. I think that when you stated that "it's not that difficult to understand" in the your post below, this is a huge overstatement. I think that the Book of Revelation is very difficult to understand.
Carol, I don't need permission from the Church to agree with you or Taylor Marshall. He happens to make great sense when it comes to history. Another interesting writer is Jimmy Akin. His videos are quite informative. There is nothing wrong with reading as much as one can when it comes to the Bible. Neither of these writer's are against the Catholic Church.
"We have no King but Caesar!" Who said this Carol? The Jews followed the pagan Roman Empire against Christ. And they will do it again. Revelations is a foreshadowing of what is coming. You need to know the history of those ancient times in order to recognize what is happening today and tomorrow.
Byron, I have read a little bit of Jimmy Akin's blog and watched a few of his videos and what he says appears to be very good. Taylor Marshall has some good reviews on his book that you have referenced in your post, this is all I have read about him and this book. Of course, you are free to read and believe whatever you like. All I am saying is that if Taylor Marshall is saying that he can interpret the Book of Revelation, is his interpretation accepted by the Church? Is your interpretation accepted by the Church? The Church has never stated that this chapter of the bible is entirely historical nor have they fully explained all of the prophecies in this chapter. To my knowledge, no one is 100% certain what it all means. To state that it is not difficult to figure out is not an accurate assessment in my opinion. Maybe all of your theories or Mr. Marshall's will be correct, only God knows. The Church is not confirming that the future is set in stone and neither am I. No, some of it is prophecy. Maybe you can post about what you believe is going to happen based on history. I explained my opinion on a very small piece of the Book of Revelation during an analysis of Saint Malachy's prophecies of the popes and you are in disagreement and that is fine. If you have it all figured out, maybe you will take the time to explain the Book of Revelation in a post. PS- It is perfectly ok that we disagree on this and on many other things. The Book of Revelation has so many different interpretations, it is difficult to keep count. This is what makes us unique and it shouldn't be cause for strife.
Carol, Marshalls writings of Revelations are based on historical facts. I have given you many examples. I haven't figured it all out by no means, but, I don't assume the Pope will be the False Prophet, Antichrist or whatever. Where is the historical fact on that? I gave you true historical facts on what happened during the World Wars, and the wars today in the Middle East. I feel, and it's my own personal belief that the Book of Revelations is a mirror to what's happening today. Again the Pagan Roman Empire today may be the New World Order behind Soros and the EU with Liberals leading the U.S. against the Catholic Church. Apostate Jerusalem is today's Neo-Cons, who have turned against the Christians in the Middle East in order to get the Greater Israel. Jesus is what fulfills the prophecy of the Book of Revelations. Anyone who denies this is an antichrist.
And about St Malachy's prophecy - that may also have already happened. There are true historical facts from the past that explain the prophecy. I don't particularly like Pope Francis, but then I didn't like Pope John the 23rd either. We don't have to like them, but we must accept them. The Church will always overcome evil. This was promised by Christ. So, again, I just don't see God throwing a Pope into the fiery pit.
Oh and who has Israel today teamed up with in the Middle East? Saudi Arabia - don't they call Mohammad a prophet?
I am curious, I consider the beasts described in these visions to be great governmental powers or kingdoms because of their resemblance to Kings historically. Much like how the Bible always describes a Church as that of a woman. So, when a kingdom becomes great like a king it can many times takes on a life of its own (like a man outside of God with a great ego serving himself) and even though there may be those who are good within the beast or governmental system it will crush and devour all who threaten its power. It usually begins with crushing the weakest and those who are the greatest burden. God's people. Those who suffer. Even eventually its own leaders if it has to. A great many do come to worship it even though they are not aware that they do. They take on its character by having no charity or love in their heart for the weak or those who suffer because of the burden and the reminder that they too are but men. They adore it's image by wearing its flag in solidarity with others who also worship it. I think that this is why in the Kingdom of God the first are last and the last are first. Humbly serving others keeps us collectively from becoming beasts. In the case of the description of the whore, it seems to me that this is describing a corrupt church which rides upon a great kingdom or government. Or a government sanctioned corrupt church. Coincidentally we have no government sanctioned churches in the west. Unless one considers Masons but they are still in the closet yet. Using the Him in the passage you quoted also fits well when one considers God has many times completely decimated Kings and entire kingdoms which were evil. Never to rise up again. Also, those who receive its character and adore its image and are seduced by it are all around us even now. How many fall into the trap of idolizing governments and its leaders to solve all the ills of the world and are easily misled into nationalistic zeal, racism, tribalism, and the incremental abandonment of the teachings of the Church which call for us to welcome and love our neighbors and eventually this becomes genocide. Man destroying that made in God's image while thinking we are doing Him a favor. These are traps, very clever and cunning ones devised specifically to lead God's chosen away from him and damn them to hell. Men are called by God to love our wives as He loves the Church. Even giving up His life for Her. I find this so very remarkable because God gives each man headship who worships God and tells us specifically how he should serve his family in a way that is pleasing to God. To give up our lives for Her. Putting our selves away and serving Her and our families. This is the divine order He has given us that is most beneficial for the family. This very principal extends all the way to the very top of the Kingdom. From the lowest Father to the Highest King. This is why I think that a Beast is not in this case a man but a great kingdom or power which is represented by man. It starts with the family and leads through the Church and even to the top of the Kingdom. This is also why our Priests do not share in the Sacrament of Marriage. It takes a great deal of effort to (give up ones life) lead ones family via service to it. Could this also be why a corrupt woman is represented as riding the beast? Does the corrupt woman who has headship like that of a man please God's plans? Does the Church that rides on the back of a great kingdom please God? With it's many blasphemes against God? Who exactly is blaspheming God? Is a Church? and is it riding a government? Consider the headbands worn by Islamic militants which state; There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is His messenger. Here is what is written above the entrances of the Al Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount; http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/DoTR.html O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion E nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) NE better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. I hope that this makes sense. A Beast can be represented by both, a man and a kingdom. Like a woman can be represented by both a harlot and a Church. I think in the case of Johns visions it is the latter.
I am very wary of the Mark Taylor’s and Jonathan Cahn’s of the world. The terms “false prophets” and “Gnostics” comes to mind whenever I listen to their “prophecies.” I stay focused on the Popes, who truly exercise the prophetic office as well as approved - and only approved - private revelation. Focusing on anything other than this is bound to lead one on a wild goose chase.
Don, I agree with Richard67 on this, this discussion does lead to a wild goose chase many times and some times creates a very unnecessary riff between people of the same Faith. I do understand what you are saying about a beast representing both a man and a kingdom but my opinion is that ultimately there will be an Antichrist, a false messiah who is a man before Eschaton and I think that is what Saint John is saying in the following scripture John 5:43 and I believe is confirmed in the following scripture Revelation 19:20. The following is from EWTN but it can easily be found in our Catechism, https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are, 1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church 2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1) 3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist. 4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment. So if you look at the above, the full number of Gentiles come into the Church and then very quickly after this has occurred the full inclusion of the Jews will occur prior to the supreme deception of the Antichrist who I believe will be a man and my explanation for doing so is above in this post. Of course, I am not saying that I am certain of my thoughts. I have merely explained why I believe this to be so. I also tried to explain that the Jews will not accept a messiah until there is extreme peace in the world which is explained in the following scripture Micah 4:3 and you can ask any Jewish person that you know to confirm this. So, therefore the Jews won't come into the Church and accept the scripture of Jesus Christ until after there is peace but they will also be expecting at some point to accept a messiah in the flesh, I think that this man will be the Antichrist. IOW, I think it is possible that at some future date people will believe that Jesus Christ has returned in the flesh, in his glorified body but this man will in fact, be the Anitchrist. Finally, this is why I stated that I believe that it is possible that the false prophet from Revelation could be a future pope. I think that the Church says very little about "the false prophet" from Revelation https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="the+false+prophet"&qs_version=DRA . To my knowledge, the Church only speaks of false prophets in general. If you read the prophecies about the end times from Saint Hildegard who is a doctor of the church, she states the same that I have stated in regards to the Gentiles and the Jews converting at the beginning of a period of peace which eventually turns into a major apostasy from the Faith - the time of the Antichrist, prior to Eschaton. There will be many antichrists and false prophets who come prior to "The End" but you may also want to consider the idea that time of the Antichrist is believed to be only approximately 3.5 years long.
I do not know if the Church has an official interpretation of the woman who rides the beast and if it does then I submit to that, but my thought has always been that the woman is a corrupt Church hierarchy. I think this because the Bible notes that she wears the colors purple and scarlet (the colors bishops and cardinals wear). Of course this might have some other more significant meaning, but that is what has always jumped out at me.
Byron, Maybe my reply to Don above can help you better understand my thoughts on this. I can't explain exactly what is going to happen but the Church does refer to the time of the Antichrist as, "the supreme deception". In addition, I have not called any particular pope the False Prophet and definitely not the Antichrist. It is my opinion that the world will be a much different place than we know it today when these things occur.
Yes. We, I think, are certainly on the same page with regard to a great many things. The written word is easily misunderstood or written in a way which can be hard or soft to show things such as empathy, brotherhood, and sisterhood. Especially coming from a guy like me. So if I have offended you in any way please forgive me for my lack of prose. The Jews will indeed accept another who comes in his own name, and yes, at a time of peace. This we are certainly told. Peace that he has a great part in creating otherwise they would not accept him. We know that many during Christs time thought that he too would lead an uprising or revolution which would restore Israel to it's claimed rightful place in the world. We know that not to be the case in the way that they expect it. I have a hard time swallowing however that regardless of our Pope being a good or bad Pope as we have in our various views seen him that the false Prophet as we understand him in relation to the End of Days can originate from the Chair of Peter or any other prelate of the church while they themselves profess that Christ is God in the flesh and are members of the body of the Church. A very easy and straight forward test. I also do not consider it because Jesus tells us that a Kingdom divided against itself can not stand. What is the Church from the very beginning but the Kingdom of God revealed to man? A kingdom which includes us, his Church. One that the gates of Hell can never close upon. They can certainly close on us however on a personal level as we all know but incorporated into the body of the Church? never. We know also that a great deal was sealed up (Rev 12:4) by Daniel at the behest of God to only be revealed at the End . Many will go to and fro and knowledge will increase. It is a good endeavor that we are in to contemplate these things, that is certain. But, whether or not God has revealed to us these great mysteries is another thing altogether.
Totally agree. Also I agree with the beasts meaning kingdoms too. I had mentioned before that I read the two beasts in Revelations to be the kingdom of pagan Rome, and the kingdom of apostolate Jerusalem.
Don, I am not offended at all. I simply explain my thoughts if someone questions a statement that I have made and everyone has their own thoughts on end times prophecies, of course. Like I said I agree with Richard that we should stick with the Church's teaching and approved private revelation and build off of that. I think I made it clear in my posts that very little has been stated about the False Prophet from Revelation by the Church or in approved prophecies. So my thoughts on this are mainly my own but I believe that everything that I have stated follows with both the Church's teaching and approved private revelation and like Richard, I caution anyone who is adopting unapproved revelations that appear to not follow with the Church's teaching or approved private revelation. I found one approved prophecy which includes a brief statement about the False Prophet (and the Antichrist). The prophecy is included in Desmond Birch's book on the end times, "Trial, Tribulation and Triumph: Before, During and After Antichrist" p. 415 and we discussed this briefly on the following thread http://motheofgod.com/threads/important-prophecy-rethink.10040/#post-158296 . The prophecy is from Saint Vincent Ferrer and is also contained in Culleton's book, "The Prophets and Our Times" (1941) p. 155 as follows, 111. St. Vincent Ferrer (d. 1418) "Armies from West, East and North will fight together in Italy and the Eagle (Great Monarch?) shall capture the counterfeit king, and all things shall be made obedient unto him, and there shall be a new reformation in the world. Woe then to the shaven orders whose crowns are shaved. (Religious who cannot disguise themselves?) "In the days of peace that are to come after the desolation of revolutions and wars, before the end of the world, the Christians will become so lax in their religion that they will refuse to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, saying 'it is an unnecessary Sacrament'; and when the false prophet, the precursor of Anti-Christ comes, all who are not confirmed will apostatise, while those who are confirmed will stand firm in the faith, and only a few will renounce Christ." http://ia800200.us.archive.org/2/items/TheProphetsAndOurTimes/TheProphetsAndOurTimes.pdf So very similar to what Saint Hildegard has stated, Saint Vincent Ferrer confirms that during a period of peace Christians will become so lax in their religion that this disposition will eventually lead to the time of the false prophet and the Antichrist. Of course, only God knows exactly what will happen in the future but because Saint Hildegard has given us a little more information about these events in relation to the timing of the conversion of the Gentiles and the Jews, what I have stated in my other posts makes sense imho.
