Steve, Many traditionalists can't stand Blessed Pope John XXIII or for that manner Vatican II. These are some of the most knowledgeable catholics I know. How about Vatican II and the "spirit of vatican II"? Can you speak to these things. They would question whether we could survive these things. Thank you.
Picadillo, Pope Emeritus Benedict replies, while waiting for Steve " From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge—a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, she will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly she will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Alongside this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. The Church will be a more spiritualized Church, not presuming upon a political mantle, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed. … But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret. And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death." By the way, Pope Emeritus Benedict did not say this recently - it seems this was written or at least this was first published in "Glaube un Zukunft ", (1970).
Lumena, Here we go again. How does this "jive" with the "new springtime" as proclaimed by Pope John Paul the Great(?)? And in the same breath, the "fruits" of Vatican II would appear to be an almost total collapse in catholicism according to the Pope emeritus.!
Pope Emeritus Benedict's description of the future of the Church - well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it. The way things were - well, we really don't want to see those things again, do we? There is going to have to be a complete devastation of the vestiges of AmChurch in order to move forward, a complete expose - its not over yet, this time of trial. The darkest hour is just before the dawn.
Hi Judy, I like what you have written, but this means Pope JP II was dead wrong in his calling for a "new springtime" and what does that have to say about Vatican II? Some renewal huh?
"We must be confident that this time of trial will bring a purification of the entire Catholic community, a purification that is urgently needed if the Church is to preach more effectively the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its liberating force. Now you must ensure that where sin increased, grace will all the more abound (cf. Rom 5:20). So much pain, so much sorrow must lead to a holier priesthood, a holier episcopate, and a holier Church" Pope John Paul II, Homily, April 23, 2002 "A new missionary age will arise, a new springtime for the Church" Pope John Paul II, Homily, May 11, 1991
I went to mass yesterday morning as usual. I like to sit at the front of the Church right before the Shrine of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour. But before I had even sat down I felt a breeze on my face and a smell, it was like Pine Cones and I thought of standing way up a mountain. Very beautiful and gentle..and then I sensed ,very strongly the presence of Our Blessed Mother. I felt a little bit guilty and nervous because I thought she was there to complain about my recent posts concerning the Holy Father. However when I said so and went to apoligise she did not say so . It is kind of hard to put into words what she said as she talked by way of, 'Impressions' or little pictures or thoughts in my heart but this is the gist of what she, 'Said'. First she said ..well its hard to explain, but I was shown a sea with lots of small boats and she said this represents souls. She said that I ( we) are like little small boats that float on a lake and because we very small the least breeze we get rocked at any little disturbance and bob up and down. She said that I (we), more nor less of loose are peace so very easily and to a degree this is not our fault it is a consequence of living on thelake of life. She then showed me a picture of Pope Francis praying.I could see as he prayed to Our Lady what he was tellling her. He was bowed down with a lot of the stuff he had learnt since he became Pope and felt overwhelmed by his burden and told her frankly he did not know what to do it just felt too much for him to bear and he was asking her what to do. Then Our Lady showed me two Pope Francis's. She was showing me him before he became Pope And after he became Pope and it seemed to me that they appeared like two entirely different people. She ,'Said' that someone who becomes Pope...is chosen to be Pope....is in a very ,very special position before God for he is chosen to lead God's Church. THat is why when I looked at the tow pictures of him, both before and after they looked so different. For someone who is chosen to be Pope becomes at once innundated by grace from God and lifted up. However she said that there is a certain battle in someone who becomes Pope between the person he was before and the person he becomes afterwards. In other words someone who is then a Cardinal has certain fixed ideas of what a Pope should do. Inevitably some of these ideas....we being very little boats ..no matter how smart these ideas may seem..are not consonant with the Will of the Most Good and Holy God. That we should not be too hard on these chosen people because we are all of us very little boats. However God does guide the Pope and lead all of them towards great sanctiity if they correspond to grace...in a very special way. ..and that in the heart of Pope Francis this battle between the former and the Pope Francis was well under way. That the Holy Spirit was trying to lead him down paths he never ,ever ,expected to go and we should be patient while this is underway. That, naturally, he would make mistakes as we all make mistakes but that we should be patient with him. In showing me Pope Francis in prayer to her , I felt a huge pity for the poor man as he seemed totally overwhelmed. But I also felt just a huge sense of peace and joy. So yes I will do as Mary asked and start to show patience and kindness and love and much prayer for the poor man. Yes He makes mistakes just as we all make mistakes. The only thing with him is when he makes a mistake the whole world knows about it. So anyway my prayers go up for our dear Holy Father. I do not envy him his huge tasks. My prayers are with him..as one very, very small boat to another..... Thank you Mary, you gentle mountain breeze ..you beautiful smell of the pine cones....the aroma of pure sanctity..the Mother of God.
Thank you Padraig for that very, beautiful synthesis of the situation the pope is in. Yes, I believe he was on his way to heaven and he's been side-swiped, asked of something he was not planning. But he is our hope, our best hope, to bridge the gap (as Drew Mariani would say), between the Blessed Mother and our troubled world. Pray, pray very much for the Holy Father, for this is the one we are meant to pray for.
Well Paul, although Our Lady was far, far too kind and gentle to say this to me I was kinda left with the impression, 'Well if you were Pope do you think you would do any better?'. A thought that makes me squirm a little but laugh a lot.
I don't care what anyone says I am sure Our Lady has a sense of humour for I am sure I heard her laughing when I posted that one. Yes indeed I suppose that was what Our Lady was saying in a nutshell , 'Do you think you would do any better?' Much more laughter from her and me.
By the way a couple of months before Pope Benedict resigned I posted that I had been shown in prayer Pope Benedict crying reading a document which a priest had just given him. The priest stood to one side watching him. Pope Francis has to deal with the thing(s) in the document which Pope Benedict left behind. I don't know what was in it, I don't want to know for I would end up crying myself...I suspect it involved Church Corruption.... but we should pray very,very much for Francis.
Sorry, but I think that it is evident that he is planning something because of the words that he said. "But I think this problem ... must be studied in the framework of matrimonial ministry. And because of this, two things: first, one of the subjects to be consulted with these eight of the Council of Cardinals, with whom we will meet, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of October, is how to go forward in matrimonial ministry, and this problem will arise there. And, a second thing: Fifteen days ago, the secretary of the Synod of Bishops was with me, for the topic of the next Synod. It was an anthropological topic, but speaking and speaking again, going and returning, we saw this anthropological topic: how faith helps the planning of the person, but in the family, and to go, therefore, to matrimonial ministry. We are on the way for a somewhat profound matrimonial ministry. And this is everyone's problem, because there are so many, no? For instance, I'll mention only one: Cardinal Quarracino, my predecessor, said that for him half of all marriages are null. Why did he say this? Because they get married without maturity, they marry without remembering that it's for the whole of life, or they marry because socially they must marry. And the matrimonial ministry also comes into this. And also the judicial problem of the nullity of marriages, this must be reviewed, because the Ecclesiastical Tribunals are not enough for this." Breathe deeply - and accept that he is planning something - then start praying for a spirit of docility to accept what may happen in October - and trust the Holy Spirit to lead the Holy Father on the right path.
Well yes, there is something...lots of thing in the wind. But I am happy and at peace about it all. Yes he will make mistakes as we all do. Myself more than anybody, poor ignorant man that I am. But God is in charge, As ever. There is a nice story about Pope John 23rd. One time during the Council he was working on Council Documents late into the evening fretting and worrying about what was going down. Then he stood up and said, 'Well Lord, it is your Church you take care of it' . Laughed, went to bed and slept soundly. I was at mass and confession there now and I am just back. My cheeks are covered in tears. I just got lost thinking about the Mother of God .the Theotokos, the Mother of the Church and I did not know whether I was in heaven or Earth I just got totally lost in it. So much so I just stood there after mass out of it till someone tapped me on the shoulder. Then on the way back suddenly as I was driving it hit me that when Our Lady had been talking to me she had been rebuking me. So very,very,very gently and kindly that up to then a couple of days later , I had not even realised that I was being set right. Then the words of the hymn about Mary came into my mind, 'Gentle Woman'. Then the tears just poured down my face. Gentle woman. Gentle woman indeed. 'Teach us wisdom, teach us love.' She was also insisting I tell you the story on the forum about Padre Pio and the train. But I will do this later as I have to go shopping and clean the house and walk the dogs, etc, etc, etc.....
You know the angels could teach us a very great deal about devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They call her, 'Queen' in tones of the Most Infinite respect and as she speaks they stand with the arms crossed before their breast, heads bowed listening with so intense a silence you can hear it. We should so the same. But so seldom do...... Queen of angels , pray for us. Great Queen of heaven intercede for us, poor sinners. Mother of God, guide us, bring us Wisdom.
Something in prophecy that I believe may prove to be pertinent to this turn of events and this discussion - Our Lady allegedly said, in "Locutions to the World" Mary My pope will lead the Church on a new path. He will say to all, “This is the way we must walk”. Even though he is the Pope, many will not agree. Many, and I stress this, many will oppose him and even threaten him. However, this new pope is like a little child who knows only the voice of his mother. He will respond to all of his critics, “This is the way my heavenly mother wants me to lead the Church. Is she not the mother of the Church?” http://www.locutions.org/2013/03/4-the-treasures-within-the-popes-heart/
You know I was just thinking and praying about the Pope the other day and was thinking just this; how like a little child he is, you can see it in his eyes.
Thank you, Blessed Mother!!! And thank you, Padraig, for being such a dear son to her, and such a solid, humble leader to us. This entire thread has unsettled me, and your post brings it clear why this is. Jesus said, "If it were possible, even the elect will be deceived." Our little boats will soon be rocked by the most vicious storm. We will all only survive, and carry out the mission we've each been entrusted with, if we firmly support and defend Peter. The enemy is always after division and confusion. The critical spirit of this world should have no place in us. For my part, I plan to cleave to my Mama and trust her to sort everything out. Pope Francis belongs to her, and I will trust him, love him and flood him with prayer, unless Mother Mary tells me different.
As for me, I will follow Holy Father with complete fidelity so long as he does not change one doctrine (teaching on faith and morals). 20 years ago, when chat lines were first present on the internet, I used to go to various chat forums where people would argue and defend their faith (haven't done this for 15 years now). If anyone remembers, this was the era of the infamous modem's that knocked you off-line at the most inconvenient moment . My position then and still ever true today was..... if anyone could find one, just one, doctrine of the Catholic faith that has ever changed in the 2000 years of the Catholic faith, I would renounce my faith this moment. No one ever found one. I feel the same today. And until and unless the Pope ever changes a doctrine of the faith (not church discipline) my fidelity will always be with the pope and his faithful bishops and priests.
