Pope Francis dies aged 88

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by garabandal, Apr 21, 2025.

  1. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    I feel it would be fun to have a poll when conclave starts for the title of the next Pope.
     
    sterph and AED like this.
  2. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I hope the next pope will lift the excommunications of Archbishops Vigano and Lefevre and all those who were excommunicated for standing up for traditional faith. We have seen very few excommunicated for preaching genuine heresy and for promoting abominable sins and this doesn't just apply to the actions of the late Pope Francis.
     
  3. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    I believe the Council brought at least some good fruits, such as a renewed appreciation for Scripture and dialogue with the Orthodox—not in the sense of ecumenical policies that avoid Catholic evangelization, but rather in the sense of looking outward and retaining what is good, such as the teachings of Orthodox saints Seraphim of Sarov and Elder Paisios the Athonite.
     
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  4. PNF

    PNF Archangels

    Meditate on Matthew 28:11-15:

    11 Who when they were departed, behold some of the guards came into the city, and told the chief priests all things that had been done. 12 And they being assembled together with the ancients, taking counsel, gave a great sum of money to the soldiers, 13 Saying: Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him away when we were asleep. 14 And if the governor shall hear this, we will persuade him, and secure you. 15 So they taking the money, did as they were taught: and this word was spread abroad among the Jews even unto this day.
    The plan of the Jews was to deceive people into believing that Jesus and his disciples faked the Resurrection. They paid the guards to make up a false story. The truth, of course, is that Jesus died a publicly verifiable death on the Cross and was Resurrected a few days later.

    The Antichrist will do the exact opposite. He will deceive people into believing that he died when he actually did not die. There will be no publicly verifiable death like the death of Jesus on the Cross. Rather, Antichrist will pretend to die so that he can claim to be resurrected.

    Hildegard on the Antichrist’s pretended death

    From Scivias:

    But I [the Antichrist] will die for you and to your glory, and rise again from death; and so I will deliver my people from Hell, that you may live gloriously with me in my kingdom, as that deceiver [Jesus] pretended He had done before." And he will tell his beloved ones to run him through with a sword and wrap him in a clean shroud, until the day of his resurrection. And he will delude them into thinking they are killing him, and so they will fulfill his commands. Then he will pretend to rise again, and bring out a writing as if for the salvation of souls, which is really a dire curse. And he will give this to people for a sign and command them to adore him. And if any person of faith refuses for love of My name, he will kill that person in great suffering and torture. And thus all who see and hear this will be struck with great wonder and doubtful amazement, as My beloved John shows... (Scivias, Book III, Vision 11, 31).

    From Book of Divine Works:

    For so too will he [the Antichrist] pretend to die, as if to redeem his people by his death, and to raise himself up again to return to life. He will also have an inscription written upon the foreheads of his followers, through which to introduce into them every evil, as too the ancient serpent, after deceiving humankind, kept them captive by stoking them with lust. Through that scripture he will inspire them by magical craft to oppose baptism and the Christian name, so that they will not desire to leave him, and all will style themselves after him, just as Christians are named after Christ. (The Fathers of the Church, Mediaeval Continuation, Volume 18. St. Hildegard Von Bingen, The Book of Divine Works. Pages 469, Part III, Vision 5, Chapter 31).​

    Please be aware that they recently changed the papal funeral procedures. In the past, the uncovered face was displayed publicly on top of the catafalque in St. Peter's Basilica. The purpose of the public display of the face of the Pope was to prove to all interested parties that the Pope had actually died before the start of the next conclave.

    But now the body will be placed inside the wooden casket and the face will be covered with "a plain white cloth." Why this change? Why would they cover his face? Do not be deceived.
     
    Mario likes this.
  5. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    From Grok

    Prompt: how many of the current cardinals were appointed by Francis?

    Response: As of April 21, 2025, Pope Francis has appointed approximately 110 of the 138 cardinal-electors (cardinals under 80 eligible to vote in a conclave), which is about 80%. The total number of living cardinals is around 245, with Francis having appointed roughly 154 (63%) since his papacy began in 2013. These figures are based on recent analyses and updates from Vatican sources, accounting for cardinals aging out and new appointments in consistories, including the latest in December 2024.

    Prompt: Breakdown eligible Cardinals into conservative, centrist and left leaning.

    Response: Categorizing the 138 cardinal-electors (as of April 21, 2025) into conservative, centrist, and left-leaning (or progressive) groups is challenging due to the fluidity of theological and ideological stances, the secretive nature of conclave dynamics, and the lack of explicit public statements from many cardinals. The terms "conservative," "centrist," and "left-leaning" are relative to the post-Conciliar Church and often oversimplify complex positions on doctrine, governance, and social issues. However, based on available analyses, Vatican reports, and sentiment on platforms like X, here is an approximate breakdown, acknowledging that these labels are imperfect and some cardinals may not fit neatly into one category.
    Methodology
    • Sources: This breakdown draws on recent analyses from Catholic media (e.g., The Pillar, Crux, Catholic Family News), Vatican reports, and posts on X, which provide insights into cardinals’ stances on key issues like Fiducia Supplicans (same-sex blessings), synodality, traditional liturgy, and social justice.
    • Criteria:
      • Conservative: Emphasize traditional doctrine, oppose changes to teachings on sexuality, marriage, or liturgy (e.g., restricting Tridentine Mass), and often align with Benedict XVI or John Paul II’s approaches. May resist Francis’s synodal reforms or progressive social stances.
      • Centrist: Moderate or pragmatic, open to Francis’s pastoral emphasis (e.g., inclusivity, environmental focus) but not fully progressive. Often seek balance between tradition and reform, avoiding extremes.
      • Left-leaning/Progressive: Align with Francis’s agenda, including synodality, inclusivity for LGBTQ+ Catholics, ecological issues, and social justice. Support reforms like decentralizing Church authority or revising teachings on moral issues.
    • Limitations: Many cardinals from the Global South (e.g., Africa, Asia) are socially conservative but politically progressive, complicating labels. Some lack public records, and Francis’s appointees are diverse, not uniformly progressive.
    Breakdown
    Of the 138 cardinal-electors:
    • Conservatives: ~25–35 (18–25%)
    • Centrists: ~55–70 (40–50%)
    • Left-leaning/Progressives: ~35–45 (25–33%)
    Conservatives (~25–35)
    • Characteristics: Favor doctrinal orthodoxy, resist progressive reforms (e.g., same-sex blessings, women’s roles), and often advocate for traditional liturgy. Some, like African or Eastern European cardinals, are vocal on issues like gender ideology or secularism.
    • Examples:
      • Péter Erdő (Hungary, 72): Opposes communion for divorced/remarried Catholics and same-sex marriage; tied to conservative Viktor Orbán.
      • Robert Sarah (Guinea, 79): Retired, beloved by conservatives for defending traditional liturgy and doctrine.
      • Dominique Mamberti (France, 73): Opposes gay marriage and restrictions on religious freedom; resists progressive narratives.
      • William Goh (Singapore, 67): Supports traditional practices like communion on the tongue; critical of synodal changes.
      • Fridolin Ambongo Besungu (DR Congo, 65): Opposed Fiducia Supplicans, reflecting African bishops’ conservative stance.
    • Notes: This group includes cardinals from Europe (e.g., Willem Eijk, Netherlands), Africa, and Asia, with some appointed by Francis unexpectedly holding orthodox views. A 2023 Prague meeting of conservative cardinals (e.g., Eijk, Oswald Gracias, Virgilio do Carmo da Silva) suggests organization against progressive trends. Catholic Family News notes that Francis appointed “surprise” conservatives, like Lars Anders Arborelius (Sweden), who oppose liberal German synodal reforms.
    Centrists (~55–70)
    • Characteristics: Pragmatic, often align with Francis’s pastoral focus (e.g., “smell of the sheep”) but avoid extreme progressive or conservative positions. Many are from Latin America, Asia, or Europe, balancing tradition with openness to reform.
    • Examples:
      • Pietro Parolin (Italy, 70): Vatican Secretary of State, seen as a political centrist, focused on diplomacy (e.g., US-Cuba, China deals).
      • Christoph Schönborn (Austria, 80): Moderate, bridges conservative and progressive wings; supported Francis but friendly with conservatives.
      • Seán O’Malley (USA, 80): Focuses on abuse reforms, aligns with Francis’s pastoralism but not overtly progressive.
      • Marc Ouellet (Canada, 80): Conservative on doctrine (e.g., priestly celibacy) but pastoral in bishop selections, reflecting Francis’s influence.
    • Notes: This is the largest group, reflecting Francis’s appointment of 110 electors (80% of the total), many of whom prioritize governance, unity, or pastoral care over ideological battles. Some, like Parolin, are seen as “continuity” candidates for a Francis-like papacy. X posts suggest centrists dominate due to Francis’s diverse appointees, many from peripheries, who avoid polarizing stances.
    Left-leaning/Progressives (~35–45)
    • Characteristics: Support Francis’s reforms, including synodality, inclusivity (e.g., LGBTQ+ outreach), and social justice (e.g., migration, ecology). Often from Europe or Latin America, they advocate for dialogue on issues like celibacy or women’s roles.
    • Examples:
      • Matteo Zuppi (Italy, 69): Progressive, tied to Sant’Egidio; supports LGBTQ+ outreach and wrote the foreword for a book on inclusivity.
      • Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines, 67): Left-leaning, vocal on inclusivity and social justice; seen as an “Asian Francis.”
      • Jean-Claude Hollerich (Luxembourg, 66): European liberal, supports progressive synodal reforms.
      • Reinhard Marx (Germany, 71): Advocates for Germany’s “synodal path,” debating celibacy and homosexuality; viewed skeptically by conservatives.
      • Robert McElroy (USA, 71): Progressive, embraces Francis’s focus on environment and LGBTQ+ inclusion.
    • Notes: This group is smaller than expected, given Francis’s appointments, as many of his cardinals from socially conservative regions (e.g., Africa, Asia) do not fully align with Western progressivism. X posts estimate progressives at 14–18% (15–20 cardinals), with “Bergoglian pastoralists” (aligned with Francis but not fully progressive) making up a larger share. Tagle’s star has dimmed due to mismanagement issues, reducing progressive frontrunners.
    Additional Insights
    • Global South Complexity: Cardinals from Africa and Asia (e.g., “Peripheries” group) are often socially conservative (opposing same-sex blessings) but progressive on issues like migration or ecology, blurring lines. X posts estimate 25–35 such cardinals (23–32%).
    • Francis’s Impact: While Francis appointed 110 electors, not all are progressive; many are pastoral or conservative, reflecting his diverse selections. Claims of “stacking” the College with liberals are overstated, as Catholic media note “closet conservatives” among his appointees.
    • Conclave Dynamics: Ideological labels may matter less than personal relationships or administrative skills in a conclave. Cardinals often prioritize a “good administrator” or unifier, per Reddit discussions.
    • X Sentiment: Posts vary widely. One suggests a conservative majority on doctrinal issues (e.g., 20/23 cardinals opposing female deacons), while another breaks down progressives (15), Bergoglians (53), peripheries (39), conservatives (25), and traditionalists (5). These are speculative but align with the conservative-centrist-progressive split here.
    Conclusion
    The College of Cardinals leans centrist (40–50%), with conservatives (18–25%) and progressives (25–33%) forming smaller but significant blocs. Francis’s appointees dominate, but their diversity prevents a progressive monopoly, and conservatives remain influential, especially on doctrinal issues. The next conclave will likely hinge on pastoral priorities and global representation rather than strict ideology, with centrists like Parolin or Zuppi holding an edge due to their broad appeal.
    Disclaimer: This breakdown is an estimate based on public data and analyses, but cardinals’ true leanings are often private, and conclave voting can defy predictions. For further details, sources like The Pillar or Crux offer in-depth profiles.
     
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  6. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    If Pope Francis comes back to life no one will buy it.
     
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  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    :)
     
    AED and Jo M like this.
  8. PNF

    PNF Archangels

    And if the government and the media told everyone that a cold virus was so dangerous that you must take multiple doses of an experimental DNA-altering vaccine in order to avoid almost certain death, no one would believe that either, right?
     
    Mario and Cherox like this.
  9. themilitantcatholic

    themilitantcatholic Principalities

    Good idea.
     
    AED and Pax Prima like this.
  10. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    We are all great sinners on this journey through this valley of tears and sorrow.

    Pope Francis, rest in God's peace. May our dear Lord reward you for all the good you have done, and as with each of us, may He forgive you for all human weaknesses, flaws, and shortcomings. This life is dust and ashes, it passes in an instant. So often we struggle with things that do not matter, while the most important thing is how we are seen in God's eyes. May the Holy Spirit grant the cardinals the gifts of understanding and insight, so that the next pope may be a light of Christ and a shepherd who will protect his flock in this time when dangers and lukewarmness of faith lurk from all sides.
     
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  11. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    I was curious about a possible Pope selection in regards to the prophecy of St. Malachy and Petrus Romanus.

    From Grok,

    Prompt: How many centrist cardinals have Peter in their name?
    Response: Final Answer
    (I posted only the conclusion)
    There are three centrist cardinals with "Peter" in their name: Pietro Parolin, Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson, and Pierbattista Pizzaballa.

    I think you can omit Peter Kodwo Appiah Turkson for not being roman.
     
    AED likes this.
  12. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

  13. AED

    AED Powers

    Amen.
     
  14. AED

    AED Powers

    "The papabile who enter the Conclave leave the Conclave a Cardinal" ( old Vatican saying)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2025
    Sam, HeavenlyHosts, miker and 2 others like this.
  15. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    Pacelli, Montini, and Ratzinger were an exception to the rule. ;)
     
  16. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    Pietro Parolin is the front runner.
     
  17. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    The people behind such a coup would require similar propagandist resources to have a hope of making it succeed. And it would be a stretch to make a frail man like Pope Francis, who looked like death warmed-up before he even died, to look like a vigorous, miraculously-resurrected antichrist. Such a move would have had to have been when he was in a fitter state of health. It's a plausible theory, but I don't think this is the moment.
     
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  18. FiliMariae

    FiliMariae Archangels

    I hope the new Pope is devoted to Our Lady. Maybe even declare the fifth Marian dogma!
     
    Mary's child, AED, sparrow and 2 others like this.
  19. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

    We should fast for the next few weeks, begging God for a holy new pope! Wouldn't it be something wonderful, if all of Christendom would fast and pray for this? In past papal elections, perhaps we took it for granted that whoever our new pope was, he'd be saintly...but this last pope has shown us that we need to be on our knees begging for God to send us a holy leader. Fasting, repenting of our pride and sins that gave us the pope we deserved, entrusting all to Mary... we could bring down God's mercy and favor for the world!
     
  20. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    The Vatican announced that the cause of the Pope's death was a stroke followed by irreversible heart failure. Had he survived, we would have faced the hypothetical dilemma of a mentally incapacitated Pope, which he had addressed in a document by linking such a condition to a resignation. I remember that when he was discharged from the hospital, Dr. Alfieri said they had decided to proceed with an aggressive treatment plan, with the Pope’s full consent, even though they knew it could damage other organs. I believe the sudden stroke may be related to that, but the medical team did the best they could. God bless them.
     
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