The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. InVeritatem

    InVeritatem Archangels

    These are very tough statements of Jesus and we just have to accept them. My marriage broke down 10 years ago and we are still married but separated. I recently got reacquainted with an old friend. His marriage broke down years ago, well before mine did, and they separated despite having young children. But he now has a new "wife". He is not at all religious, I think, but I would like to encourage the friendship because of my fondness for him. Just supposing he and his new "wife" were converted to Catholicism, it would be hard for me to think of them being excluded from the sacramental life of the Church. But there you go .... I sometimed don't know what to think ... but there you go. Jesus had many hard sayings. In my dealings with others, especially with older people, I find myself naturally employing a very pastoral approach. For example, with people who are approaching death and have current beliefs and/or past lives which are less than ideal; I find it so hard to say to them - "look, the way you are now, the way you have believed in the past are far from the kingdom of God. For God's sake, come to your senses and repent now. Change your ways and beliefs! Do you not see how you have wasted your whole life on meaningless pursuits. Do you not see that you may not be alive this time next year. Which one of us can even count on tomorrow? Are you ready for eternity with God? For God's sake, wake up!" It is so hard to say that to someone, even though you might be thinking it, even though you might think the circumstances require it. And so I lapse into "the pastoral approach" and accompany them in their ways. But it seems the whole basis of the Church's approach in the modern world is "the pastoral approach". God help us.

    How could I say to my friend - "you will have to live chastely with your current partner and repent of your adultery"? And, "if you join the Catholic Church, do not try to receive Holy Communion unless you are living chastely". When did I ever hear a priest saying this from the pulpit? God help us.
     
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  2. padraig

    padraig Powers

  3. padraig

    padraig Powers

    https://thecatholicherald.com/article/exclusive-bishop-schneider-amoris-laetitia-against-divine-law

    'As the Pope gathers prelates to the Vatican to discuss Amoris Laetitia, Bishop Athanasius Schneider has expressed his concerns that the text is a practical “denial of the divine truth of the indissolubility of marriage” and an attack on the “ineffable sanctity of the Holy Eucharist”.

    The prominent prelate, auxiliary of Astana in Kazakhstan, gave a wide-ranging interview to the Catholic Herald recently, discussing issues such as the Society of Saint Pius X, the traditional Mass, Amoris Laetitia (AL), the recent document commemorating Nostra Aetate and his overall assessment of the state of the Church. '
     


  4. Synod Theologian Declares Divorce And Remarriage A Holy Vocation
     
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  5. I do love Bishop Schneider!
     
  6. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    Maybe it’s their answer to why people aren’t getting married anymore.
     
  7. maryrose

    maryrose Powers

    I think people in their own conscience realize that divorce and remarriage for Catholics is a no no. People do apply for annulment if they want to be free to remarry. People who have come to the church later are in a different category.
    The local churches here do not provide regular confessions. Many people receive Holy Communion and they haven't attended confession in years
    If each parish provided confession at least one evening a week it would help people to consider sin in their lives.
    I think that is the slippery slope to everything.
     
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  8. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Agree
     
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  9. Cherox

    Cherox Principalities

    This confuses me and I'm not sure where I really stand. I was married for 25 years and divorced before I ever thought about becoming Catholic. I then married a man who had been married and divorced twice. First in a catholic church, second not. He was a lapsed Catholic who had never been confirmed.
    We each did annulments. Although he only had to have an annulment for the first marriage.
    We proceeded with OCIA for me and confirmation for him and had our marriage convalidated on the Easter vigil when I was received into the church.
     
  10. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    I can't speak for Maryrose. But I do feel like we don't have a good grip on marriage today. As in, we come at it from a worldly worldview.

    Our consciences should be screaming when we are doing wrong in marriage. But I don't believe they are generally speaking. Maybe confession would help with that.

    But in essence, we have lost a certain sense of sanctity in regards to marriage. Being perverted by modern indoctrination I suppose.

    How we get that sense of sanctity back I don't know. But doing a patch job by saying that divorce and remarriage is holy won't work. Because the state of divorce currently is symptom of greater problems that need to be addressed.
     
  11. I agree about more times for confession.
     
  12. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    The annulment issue is often misconstrued. An annulment is granted by the Marriage Tribunal in the event that a sacramental marriage never existed. There are only a few criteria under which an annulment can be granted. I will try to find a link explaining this.
     
  13. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

  14. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Confession is an (almost) incredible straightener-out and a tremendous source of grace to help one give up sins that one thought one never could.

    Needs to be anonymous…
     
  15. Mario

    Mario Powers

    My understanding is that if the Church reviews and determines that from early on in the marriage one spouse exhibits unfaithfulness, abuse (emotional, physical), extra-marital affair, etc...; such infidelity and lack of charity reveals that a true marital covenant was not entered into. If such a covenant is not evident, then a authentic union does and did not exist, and an annulment can be declared.

    Faithfulness for 10 years followed then by infidelity is a different animal and should be handled in another manner.

    Of course, many have thought the Church has been overly lenient in such assessments. Whether that be true or not doesn't nullify the Church's authority in regard in such matters.:oops::rolleyes::coffee:
     
  16. Mario

    Mario Powers

    I do believe the Church has taken steps in the last few decades to improve marriage preparation. Then one argues the instructors have done a poor job! And on and on it goes...:whistle: In my training as a deacon, we had a class on issues of marriage and non-marriages. Not a simple equation to apply to every unique situation. The ultimate problem centers on each individual's surrender to Christ and commitment to His Church.
     
  17. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    I think this goes far beyond marriage prep. It's like saying a person can now be a spiritual director because they took the course.

    Like comparing driving a car to merely having read a book about it. Or better yet, reading about a car accident and thinking it is comparable to having been in one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2026 at 9:20 PM
  18. InVeritatem

    InVeritatem Archangels

    Take this hypothetical case which I suspect is quite common. A couple divorces and one of them civily remarries and then has children with the new "wife". Then some time later they convert. They may even get their children baptised and send them to catholic schools. But they are living in sin and on the path to hell. Is there no way the Catholic Church can extend mercy such a couple without asking them to live chastely and avoid taking Holy Communion? Or does the Church even have to say to them not only should you live chastely but you must both avoid the occasions of sin and separate for the good of your souls. Then repent of your sins in Confession. What about the welfare of the children in such a scenario? Would making an allowance for such 'irregular situations' be the thread that pulls asunder the whole theological garment of salvation which the Church has professed since Christ was on earth?
     
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  19. InVeritatem

    InVeritatem Archangels

    I suppose annulment is a possibility here, but if there were children from the original marriage that might not be possible.
     
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  20. maryrose

    maryrose Powers

    My children all went through the Catholic marriage prep. Artificial contraception was discussed as an option. I think these courses leave much to be desired.
    If the church grants annulment and gives permission for a remarriage then that's ok. The church has the authority.
    If people were actively encouraged to go to confession and the sacrament provided in every parish it would help everyone. Our consciences are dulled by sin. The just man falls seven times a day.
    If we confessed more often we would all improve and it would impact every aspect of our lives including our marriages.
     

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