Most marriages today are invalid, Pope Francis suggests

In defence of the Holy Father,

I had a marriage that looked good from the outside. It took place in a Catholic Cathedral in NZ, after the appropriate preparation, a shotgun wedding.

I loved my American Protestant Groom - but he never got over the fact that he had not freely chosen marriage, had not freely chosen ME to be his wife.

So I woke up in the dog box every day of my married life. It was as if he would open his eyes in the morning and sigh, and say to himself , "Oh- its HER- the one I didnt want, its not a bad dream, its real!"

Early after the birth of our first child, he returned to the USA and took me to live in the USA with him as if I were a piece of excess baggage, and unfortunately took me to live beside his mom and dad, on their property, in their guesthouse, so I had these people I didnt know, that he knew so well, just yards away from my door for the first six years and they seemed to be able to control me / us. In other words, my husband did not "LEAVE" his father and mother and he and I never bonded - we did not cleave. His primary relationship was in fact with his MOM. He was tied to the apron strings. I was really superfluous to the family's requirements.

He also had pretended, leading up to the wedding( to appease the Priest who was preparing us for marriage) that he was happy to live according to the Church teachings against artificial contraception - but I found this not to be the case in reality. He demanded that I go on the pill, which I refused to do.

So - I slept on the very edge of the bed for 15 years, and feeling, knowing intuitively, that I was not loved or adored, I refused, for the most part, to have relations with him. We lived in a sort of uneasy peace but he was not happy and it wasnt fair that to the outside world he appeared to be married yet was actually living a life of enforced celibacy, because I knew that something was amiss in his lack of devotion to me and I wouldnt let him touch me. (In fact he nicknamed me "touch -me- not.")

What a disaster. Sorry if this is TMI but these are the stories that usually you dont hear, yet the priests deal with stories like this and they know...

Living in foreign country , away from all support of my own family, having no hope of returing to NZ, I saw that the one in the American Family who truly loved me was my baby son- so I decided to make the best of the situation and have more children. I was like Leah, in the Old Testament, who knew she was not Rachel, the preferred bride, but would have children with Jacob as a way of finding a sense of purpose in life.

So I went on to have three more children, but don't imagine this meant that the relationship was healed.

I returned to the practise of my faith and joined the Third Order of the Carmelites.

But one day,when I was about 35 years old, my husband admitted to me that he had felt "trapped" and backed in to a corner and "like a caged animal" leading up to our wedding. I told my Spiritual Director in Carmel, a elderly and Saintly Fransiscan Friar, who is now deceased. The friar looked at me and said " "If you want to, you can stay with him. If you dont - you dont have to put up with this."

I was shocked at this. I went home unsure of what he meant. Surely I was bound to stay with that man I had married, for the rest of my life? But no, I did my research then, and I came to learn about Defective consent.

Each one must freely CHOOSE marriage, knowing what marriage IS. ( -including that part about openess to life.) And people marrying today often do not know what marriage is.

So - our whole family returned to NZ unexpectedly, and I eventually left that husband .I went through the anullment process and was granted an anullment.

I find myself having to defend this - I often find Catholics do not want to accept that I obtained an anullment. I find myself defending my position and the Tribunal's decision. Even on this forum I have been excoriated over it.

People looking on from the outside see something scandalous- "She had the perfect family and the nicest husband and she just walked away from it, what a disgrace. She must go back, or she will go to Hell".

This is the prevailing attitude. Because they dont know the inside track. They set themselves up as judge and jury.

Enquiring minds want to know :"On what grounds did you get an anullment??????"

I no longer answer that question. I know that my so called "marriage" was not a real marriage.

Now at most "Catholic" weddings today, lets be honest, the Bride is on "the pill" by the time she gets to the Altar. This invalidates the marriage, right there.


Please read "50 Reasons why the Winnipeg Statement should be recalled" by Monsignor Vincent Foy.

https://msgrfoy.com/2014/03/14/fift...-should-be-recalled-by-monsignor-vincent-foy/

Go to reason #47

"47. It has been the cause of invalid marriages. To exclude the right to have children, whether for a time, indefinitely or forever, whether on the part of one or both parties, or by mutual agreement, invalidates the marriage. Numerous couples have invoked the Winnipeg Statement to assert a “right” to exclude children and have brought this intention into a defective marital consent."

Monsignor Vincent Foy.

Yes, its true, in the age of "birth control" most contemporary marriages are Sacramentally invalid.

 

There are marriages that are invalid, but this is a long, long , log way form saying most marriages are invalid.

If the Chairman of our hospital were to announce tomorrow that most of the treatments given here were invalid our hospptial would be empty by this time tomorrow.

Same goes for marriage. if on the other hand the Chairman of the hosptial were to announce that occasionally that in some treatments the patient failed to repsond people would just shrug and say, 'Sure, thats what we'd expect'.

But Pope Francis has not said this and has effectively sabotaged the sacrament. Just as the hospital would be empty, he has left the Sacrament an empty house. A farce, a failure. He has, in effect, told the entire world that the Sacrament of Marriage does not work in practise..

If a maechanic told me this about my automobile I would dump it right away.
I'm soory , apparently he did not say that the majority of marriages were null, in fact he appears to have said that, “the great majority of our sacramental marriages are null.”

Not just crazy but super duper astronomically crazy. He has, effectivelly shot the Sacrament of Marriage right through the head.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/06/pope-francis-says-think-twice-before-marriage.html

 

Dear Padraig,

-give yourself 24 hours, 48 even, to pray and seek the Lord on this. Dont express these sentiments that are born from ill temper in public. We don't even have the transcript, and he probably hasnt made the remarks in English,

so it is someone's translation

and also someone has edited it

and no doubt it is designed to make mischief.

Dont let the Devil!

 

Sigh. The media are full of it. Apparently another off the cuff bombshell. They are all reporting it exactly as it was reported here. Everyone. Even the Non Catholic press are laughing at us.

Suppose for a second all the media , right across the globe are being unprofessional and incompetant in misreporting this.

Suppose.

Suppose the Vatican Press Office tomrrow or today caomes out with a statement , 'Oh the Pope did not mean this , the Pope really meant that...'..as they usually do.

The damage has already been done. You can't fix temrinal cancer with a sticking plaster. This remark has caused catastorphic damage. Not for the first time from an off the cuff remark.

Either the Holy Father is semi catonic in making these repeated errors or he knows exactly what he is doing and sliding us all messages under the door.

I am afraid I now believe it to be the former. The Holy Father knows exactly what he is saying and the world media has picked up on it correctly.

I am afraid, for myself at least, the tme for hoping it is all a bad dream and a misunderstanding is at an end.

Kick me in the head once, fool you, kick me on the head multiple times fool me. I am afraid a Vatican Press Office cover note just won't do it for me anymore.

 

Look at this from NBC for instance, this has gone all over the globe.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/most-modern-marriages-are-invalid-pope-says-cuff-remarks-n594121

 

Ok Ill give you another example,

About a year ago, my beautiful 21 year old daughter (raised Catholic but now evangelical non denominational, still searching, may end up back in Catholic Church) got married to a very nice young man, a Christian, non Catholic. They got married, not in a Church but in an art gallery. (Without the permission of the Bishop) (Invalid marriage, because as far as I am concerned, my daughter is Catholic, baptised, raised, Confirmed, Holy communion, never formally divorced herself from the Church, so she would have needed the permission of the Bishop so her Christian marriage lacks canonical form).

A Christian Pastor married them and the wedding was moving, very special, because these two young people were making a comittment for life, and they really knew it. But as non Catholic Christians, they felt free to avail themselves of the Birth Control Pill, immediately, from honeymoon onwards, and now, instead of working, making a home and raising a family, they are travelling in the United States, singing, sharing the Gospel, living in a Camper van, like a couple of itinerant Apostles!!

Lol. All this they can acheive because they are on Birth Control. So they essentially havn't comitted themselves to true Sacramental marriage, have they. Their intentions are good but they don't understand where those words "Holy Matrimony" come from. They mean the state of Holy Motherhood. Or the Holy state of Motherhood.

It is about being open to life, to family, about growing up, not about doing what you want to do, going where you want to go, not about having " fun"

There is a good chance that they will come to that place where they embrace the Faith in all of its richness, but right now, they are in denial of what marriage entails and they are doing what THEY find is "fun" to do. They are having an adventure.

And I have to say, it irks me. I could have insisted that they marry within the walls of a Catholic Church - but I knew that we could still end up in the very same place we are right now. ie they could have gone through those Catholic motions to please or appease me, but they dont "get it" so they would have gone the same route with the pill and the big overseas adventure.

When the Holy Father says its "Provisional", I think the word needed is "conditional".

I.e. that young people (and sometimes not so young) often go to the altar with conditions on their minds, saying in their minds "I'll take you for better but not for worse, I'll take you for richer but not for poorer, I'll take you in health but if you get sick, I'll dump you. I want you, but not your children. If you get pregnant at an inopportune time, we will have to take care of that, I'll take you but with a pre nuptial agreement, Ill take you for now but if someone better comes along, I wont remain with you, etc. etc."

How do we use the concept of the word "provisional" in English language?

We say "I'll do this, provided that you do this"

"Ill marry you, provided you dont bear more than 2 children". "I'll marry you, provided you work full time, like I do,for the duration."

And perhaps he said "conditional" but it has been mistranslated?

Or he used the wrong word because of his unfamiliarity with the language?

 

I am not judging anyone else's marriage but many years ago my marriage was in grave difficulty. Pope John Paul had said some years earlier to pray for the grace of the sacrament when in difficulties so I did. It took time but the grace came. The one thing that held me during that very difficult time was the memory of those words 'for better or for worse still death do us part'. I would be turning my back on Jesus if I didn't try. I know the culture now is terrible but marriage preparation courses are not focussing on Catholic teaching on marriage. Contraception methods including 'the pill' are discussed. Humane Vitae is put to one side. The church needs to preach and teach on marriage and the sacrament should be restricted to those who are prepared to accept the church teachings on marriage. If the bride is pregnant but the couple are prepared to enter a sacramental marriage and sign up to the conditions for sacramental marriage, they should be
able to get married.
Mary

 

Wait a moment... I can certainly understand the firestorm of reactions that has already started (e.g. Damian Thompson at The Spectator) in reaction to Pope Francis's words yesterday. That he already in Buenos Aires shared the opinion of his Argentine predecessor in considering a large percentage of marriages null because of immaturity is no secret. However, this is the first time to my knowledge that he has talked about a 'majority of marriages'.

Nonetheless, listening to Pope Francis's remarks in the Italian and in context via the video on the CNA link, the Pope is not saying here that the majority of Catholic marriages in an absolute sense are null and void. That is a journalistic misconstrual. He is speaking specifically about those contracted today in a culture where everything is 'provisional'.

At the same time, there is no doubt that what Pope Francis has said does raise many questions, and only time will tell what the fall-out from this will be. It ought to be obvious from his tone of voice that he is speaking pastorally, not dogmatically, but when thought about logically, there are inescapable dogmatic implications (how the status of the sacrament of Matrimony as ex opere operato can be reconciled with Francis's view is the obvious question, to which the answer probably depends whether immaturity is in itself enough to constitute a lack of proper disposition).

My personal sense - and this is just opinion, nothing more - is that strict logical categories are really foreign to the Pope's thinking and way of expressing himself, and that for some reason he doesn't get the fact that every word of his, however spontaneous, will be analyzed and pulled apart for its ramifications by commentators some of whom are operating in good faith and some plainly not.

Watch and pray!!

 

Yeah . Watch and pray. Watch this Pope very closely!

 

"Many marriages are not of God, and are not pleasing to God."

Blessed Jacinta, to Mother Godinho.

 

This all having been said, I do insist on the difference between reading the Pope's remarks in the abstract in black and white, and hearing them when spoken with his own tone of voice and body language, which says as much if not more than many words. This is like emphasizing the difference between 'left-brained' (i.e. analytic) and 'right-brained (more intuitive, non-verbal) approaches to life. It strikes me that much - though of course not all - of the division over Pope Francis can be seen in these categories: that he is a 'right-brainer' ought to be a 'no-brainer'))

I myself am convinced that this Pope's primary mission is that of a universal pastor. Not a dogmatician (like Benedict XVI) or a logical philosopher (e.g. St John Paul II). Until this is understood - together with the reasons why he should be the Pope for this precise season, which IMHO have everything to do with the Doors of Mercy - then the essence of his Pontificate has not been grasped. It is as a pastor that he has made an epochal impact not only in the Church but also in the World which God so loved that he sent his Son to die for it. Yes, there is a price to be paid for this pastoral approach in terms of a certain looseness of language, and yes, it has caused and will cause trouble. But it can also be viewed as the 'flipside' of Pope Francis's spontaneity, which is certainly a great gift and I am convinced has brought countless numbers to Christ. Heaven doesn't offer 'Designer' Popes, I'm afraid: God works (thank goodness!) through sinful human beings... as Francis would be the first to acknowledge.

 

I am married to a divorced Catholic (civil marriage), we are together now for 13yrs. In summary his first marriage broke down due to immaturity (on both sides) and his first wife meeting her now second husband.
I met my husband after his separation (I had not known him previously) I remember asking my husband would he have stayed in the marriage if she had not 'kicked him out' and he said that yes he would have for the sake of their young son. At the time that I met him I never considered that this was a sin (although I knew my mother would not be happy) as I had not caused the break up. Since returning to the church this 'issue' has become the one thing I cannot fix, in the eyes of the church we are living in sin and our children are illegitimate. I cannot bring myself to accept this as a sin because we have two wonderful boys and have been loyal and faithful despite been tested for all these years. Annulment is not an option right now as my husband has not returned to his faith (still praying). I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I take some heart that Pope Francis understands the complexities of these situations and perhaps others would say that I am being an " A La Carte Catholic" (depends on which side of the fence) I pray the rosary, the seven sorrows daily and look after my family, I have to trust that I have or will be forgiven or at worst will have to do my stint in purgatory, I doubt that the Lord would want my family to split up. What I can't understand is that people who marry in the Catholic Church have to undergo a preparatory course so why then is there a grey area? Perhaps the priests need to rethink their teachings (across the board ) so there is less confusion.

 

Who needs the media? We have the MoG Forum and you Padraig!

Can you not do as you sometimes do yourself, and also advise others to do, and take this away and pray into it... please.

 

Every time something like this comes up with Pope Francis I remember Charlie Johnston's statement that Pope Francis would make a "major blunder." Every time I think I've found that blunder, the Pope goes ahead and tops himself with the next. Seriously, how is Pope Francis to lead us through the Great Storm if he is unable to explain the faith clearly in circumstances of his own choosing?

 

Most Catholic marriages are sterile /contraceptive unions, are they not? It is the exception to the rule that Catholics would be bearing any other than designer children and open to that possibility.

Nowadays, artificial birth control is seen by catholics and non catholics alike as an absolute necessity. We need two full time incomes to survive and to be able to afford a home / mortgage. Right?

So the social conditions we find ourselves in are at war against the family. Therefore most catholic couples find themselves contracepting. But the Church laws against this cannot change because the Holy Father's have said that contraception is intrinsically evil. Something that is evil in its very nature cannot sudddenly become good.

Therefore catholics go along to get along, they silently protest against the marriage laws of the Church and they do what they feel they have to do.

They use the Church for schooling their children, they no longer show up for Mass, they use the Church buildings for their wedding ceremonies and for the baptisms that they undertake in order to get their childen in to the Catholic school system.

But they protest against the demands of the Church regarding marriage and openess to life, which makes them in essence, Protestants.

And therefore most catholic marriages are invalid.

 

I have questions about if this was the proper pastoral way to address this but that's his style. He is talking to all the world. Not just we devout Catholics. Context people. Context.

But good gravy, the man is right. Marriage in our world, like most moral issues, is in a shambles. Less then half of Catholics even bother to go to Mass. and of those that do it's quite clear that the majority do not live their marriage as a Sacrament.

Here's some facts. And these numbers from the US are far far worse in the Hispanic world. I think it all points back to contraception:

"How else are we doing since this great sexual revolution? Kim Kardashian's marriage lasted 72 days. Illegitimacy: way up. In 1960, 5.3% of all births in America were to unmarried women. By 2010, it was 40.8% [PDF]. In 1960 married families made up almost three-quarters of all households; but by the census of 2010 they accounted for just 48 percent of them. Cohabitation has increased tenfoldsince 1960."

 

Bingo. You get it. Our Pope is simply calling a spade a spade.

Padraig, this is a rhetorical question. Do not answer it, but instead hold it in your heart and pray about it: do you think the majority of marriages in our world are lived by the husband and wife as Sacraments that are pleasing to Gods eyes?

 

The church needs to find the bottle to preach on living a Catholic marriage. We have had years of heresy. Artificial contraception is not an option. We are reaping the whirlwind of rebellion to humane vitae.

 

I don't know if anything could shock me anymore. What we are dealing with here is crisis of faith. A spiritual crisis that has not been seen since the time of Noah. The social networking and communication has truly sped up our digression to what our Holy Father has said. Words don't mean much in today's society, because our hearts are not in-tuned towards the one true God and his truths and most will say whatever gets them what they want for the moment. One hopes that the sacrament of baptism is still valid for the baby/child, who's parents, who themselves are not practicing the faith, but getting their baby baptized for other reasons. While the baptism would be valid, the poor child will most likely not be reared in the faith by faithless parents. You see where we are at? We are a society going through the formalities without right thinking in the spiritual context. I may be a lone ranger here, but I can see what Holy Father is saying, at least to some degree. People use the word "I love you" in today's world to get what is temporarily expedient. Theirs is not the love preached in the Gospels. Love is a word that has been so bastardized that just saying it, even in a a sacramental marriage, is questionable as to whether it is love of self or love of Gods truth that it is said. Most everyone has son, daughter, relatives and friends whom we know have been married within the Church and soon find out that one, or both, of the spouses did not understand the love that they promised, as it was built on a 'love' the world speaks of, not the Gospel. A crisis of faith is the cause and a purification of this world by God will be the only answer at this point.

 

Spot on. The reaction from the same people that question whatever our Pope says is just more signs of the times. They are literally shooting the messenger.

He's right people. The Sacrament of Marriage IS broken and contraception is the cause. Pope Paul VI was prophetic:

Pope Paul VI made four rather general "prophecies" about what would happen if the Church's teaching on contraception were ignored.


Infidelity and moral decline

The Pope first noted that the widespread use of contraception would "lead to conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality." That there has been a widespread decline in morality, especially sexual morality, in the last 25 years, is very difficult to deny. The increase in the number of divorces, abortion, our-of-wedlock pregnancies, and venereal diseases should convince any skeptic that sexual morality is not the strong suit of our age.

There is no question that contraception is behind much of this trouble. Contraception has made sexual activity a much more popular option that it was when the fear of pregnancy deterred a great number of young men and women from engaging in premarital sexual intercourse. The availability of contraception has led them to believe that they can engage in premarital sexual activity "responsibly." But teenagers are about as responsible in their use of contraception as they are in all other phases of their lives--such as making their beds, cleaning their rooms and getting their homework done on time.

Lost Respect for Women

Paul VI also argued that "the man" will lose respect for "the woman" and "no longer (care) for her physical and psychological equilibrium" and will come to "the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment and no longer as his respected and beloved companion." This concern reflects what has come to be known as a "personalist" understanding of morality. The personalist understanding of wrongdoing is based upon respect for the dignity of the human person. The Pope realized that the Church's teaching on contraception is designed to protect the good of conjugal love. When spouses violate this good, they do not act in accord with their innate dignity and thus they endanger their own happiness. Treating their bodies as mechanical instruments to be manipulated for their own purposes, they risk treating each other as objects of pleasure.

Abuse of Power

Paul VI also observed that the widespread acceptance of contraception would place a "dangerous weapon... in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies." The history of the family-planning programs in the Third World is a sobering testimony to this reality. In Third World countries many people undergo sterilization unaware of what they are doing. The forced abortion program in China shows the stark extreme toward which governments will take population programs. Moreover, few people are willing to recognize the growing evidence that many parts of the world face not overpopulation, but underpopulation. It will take years to reverse the "anti-child" mentality now entrenched in many societies.


Unlimited Dominion

Pope Paul's final warning was that contraception would lead man to think that he had unlimited dominion over his own body. Sterilization is now the most widely used form of contraception in the U.S.; individuals are so convinced of their rights to control their own bodies that they do not hesitate to alter even their own physical make-up.

The desire for unlimited dominion over one's own body extends beyond contraception. The production of "test-tube babies" is another indication of the refusal to accept the body's limitations; so too are euthanasia and the use of organs transplanted from those who are "nearly" dead. We seek to adjust the body to our desires and timetables, rather than adjusting ourselves to its needs.