Padraig, There is a lot to contemplate in this thread. I dip in and out as I am extremely busy. have you any plans to put this in book format like you did with your personal conversion story. It could be very helpful to people especially in time to come. Mary
Padraig - do you think it is possible for someone to attain holiness without mystical experiences? For example, a believer who has devotion to God and submits to the will of God without ever having 'heard' the voice of God or experienced visions of angels, heaven etc. In other words lives a life of faith despite a 'profound silence' from heaven. The soul relies in trust upon the goodness of God and trusts this goodness through learned experience rather than from mystical experience if that makes sense?
I think ,Bobby if you define Mysticism ,as one French writer did as , 'An exploration of the Mystery of Christ'.; then it is impossible for for us to grow, 2 Corinthians 3:18 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. As all things, including ourselves are brought under the Kingship of Christ: Ephesians 1:10 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. But it seems to me that people in their walk to God can experience Him in various ways. As a constant darkness or absence or as a constant presence ,sometimes in the form of vivid mystical experiences . But even then all of us eventually either in this life or the next have to experience and go through the Dark Night of the Soul which is to experience God as an absence. Sometimes God is so present that it is a bit like staring at the sun, it blinds us and makes all things Dark. For me the saint who quickly springs to mind as experienced God in darkness without any visions or spiritual fireworks is St Therese of Liseaux.
I would say the path of most souls is the sure safe path of the ordinary, of experiencing God in the everyday. But whether we travel in light or darkness matters little, so long as we travel.
I think God has me follow the normal way of sanctity because gifts of visions, prophecy, locutions would be unhealthy for me at the present time. I pray that God tells me what I need to know when I need to know it and then I don't screw up acting on it. The Dominican theologian Fr Lagrange wrote an expansive book on mystical theology describing how infused contemplation is the normal way of sanctity, based on the writing of St Thomas Aquinas, St John of The Cross, and St Francis de Sales (http://www.christianperfection.info/tta1.php). I still find Padraig more readable though We have thus found a confirmation of what we believe to be the truth about the infused contemplation of the mysteries of faith, which seems to us more and more to be in the normal way of sanctity and to be morally necessary to the full perfection of Christian life. In certain advanced souls, this infused contemplation does not yet appear as a habitual state, but from time to time as a transitory act, which in the interval remains more or less latent, although it throws its light on their entire life. However, if these souls are generous, docile to the Holy Ghost, faithful to prayer and to continual interior recollection, their faith becomes increasingly contemplative, penetrating, and full of savor, and it directs their action while making it ever more fruitful. In this sense, we maintain and we explain what seems to us the traditional teaching, which is more and more accepted today: namely, that the normal prelude of the vision of heaven, the infused contemplation of the mysteries of faith, is, by docility to the Holy Ghost, prayer, and the cross, accessible to all fervent interior souls... Purgatory, being a punishment, presupposes a fault that we could have avoided and that we could have expiated before death by accepting the trials of the present life with an ever better will. We are seeking here to determine the normal way of sanctity or of a perfection such that one could enter heaven immediately after death. From this point of view, we must consider the life of grace inasmuch as it is the seed of eternal life, and consequently it is the correct idea of eternal life, the end of our course, which must illuminate the entire road to be traveled. Movement is not specified by its point of departure or by the obstacles it encounters, but by the end toward which it tends. Thus the life of grace must be defined by eternal life of which it is the seed; and then the proximate and perfect disposition to receive the beatific vision immediately is in the normal way of sanctity.
Here is the best writer on such matters as prayer and growth in holiness I have read. He is very clear and speaks from experience, his cause for caonisation is going forward in Rome.
Well Bobby ,when i entered the monastery library I thought I'd died and gone to heaven , there must have been a couple of hundred books on mysticism , prayer and progress towards God. I think I read everyone of them. I was so happy because where else could you find such stuff? But I think after Vatican 2 the emphasis was more on stuff like psychology, sociology, political action and so on... But the wheel has started to swing back a little. But folks like Legrange, Pulain and Arintero are priceless. But folks like Arintero who not only talks the talk but walked the walk are best.
I will have to read Arintero but I think reading Aquinas, Legrange and others led me to becoming a Secular Franciscan since all of the knowledge in the world wasn't transforming my life. St Francis' simple gospel to life and life to gospel way of living helped me to love others better. I was also drawn to his concept of each day we begin again. That's not to say these Dominican giants aren't worth reading, only that they weren't helping me become a better version of myself (more of a me problem than them). I recently started to read a book on St Gemma Galgani but had to put it down after a couple of chapters. Its wonderful that some souls seem inborn with holiness and God speaks to them directly but this is so foreign to me personally I find reading about such saints makes me feel like their awesome and I never will be. Again a me-problem but I seem to draw little fruit from stories of perfect saints. I also need to revisit Teresa of Avila's writings which I guess is where this thread started. As you said "prayer and progress towards God" is what's important.
I must admit Dan I do love to see saints foul up , it makes me feel like I have something in common with them. For instance there is a little story in the life of St Ignatius of Loyola,not all that many months , I think from his conversion. 'He had decided that he wanted to go to Jerusalem to live where our Lord had spent his life on earth. As a first step he began his journey to Barcelona. Though he had been converted completely from his old ways, he was still seriously lacking in the true spirit of charity and Christian understanding, as illustrated by an encounter he had with a Moor on his way. The Moor and he came together on the road, both riding mules, and they began to debate religious matters. The Moor claimed that the Blessed Virgin was not a virgin in her life after Christ was born. Ignatius took this to be such an insult that he was in a dilemma as to what to do. They came to a fork in the road, and Ignatius decided that he would let circumstances direct his course of action. The Moor went down one fork. Ignatius let the reins of his mule drop. If his mule followed the Moor, he would kill him. If the mule took the other fork he would let the Moor live. Fortunately for the Moor, Ignatius' mule was more charitable than its rider and took the opposite fork from the Moor.' I have a feeling that the Muslim gentleman was very,very lucky Iggy's mule headed of in the wrong direction. I would rather read a story like this than ten of raptures. But still I do dearly love stories of miracles, the supernatural and the mystical the great spiritual fireworks. I think one of the mistakes hagiographers made in the past was to set saints up too high on a pedestal so high it seemed impossible for us ordinary mortals to reach them .But I think what makes a saint a saint is not that they never fell but that when they did they picked themselves up and ran on. Ran on, when I am afraid the rest of us kinda totter on. But my biggest revelation these last few years is to realise that saints are not just in far away places but really all around us in the Church. There was a story in the life of Pope Pius the xii. I think he had just canonised a Roman saint and his secretary asked him if he thought that there was a saint alive in Rome today? pope Pius went looked thoughtfully out the window overlooking Rome thoughtfully and then repeated twice, 'On every street, on every street!' There is another story that when poor Pope Pius was dying a very painful death of cancer, that on his deathbed he cried several times, 'Mother! Mother!' The pious prelates ascribed this to the fact he was crying out to Our Lady (to whom he had a great devotion). But I like to think he was crying out to his own earthly mother as one well might. When St Therese was dying an horrific death from tuberculosis (the Mother Superior had refused pain relief drugs on the extraordinary contention that poor Therese was in no pain and to save money) Therese insisted on the strongest nun in the convent should nurse her so that she wouldn't be in such agony when lifted and turned on her bed and had her drugs hidden so she wouldn't suicide on them. On the other hand there is the true delightful story of the rich Roman widow who was renowned for her charity and piety. After her death a popular movement went ahead to have her canonised. However it was blown out of the water when it was found she had left a very considerable amount of money to press her case for canonisation!!! Which ended that. I have known three gentlemen who I am convinced were saints. Cardinal Basil Hume who was Primate of Britain and whose cause is going ahead in Rome. The former Catholic archbishop and Primate of Iran , expelled from the country by the Ayatollah Komeini. And Fr Paul Mary a Passionist missionary priest. They all had one great thing in common , when you talked with them they LISTENED. By that I meant they just weren't simply good listened when you talked to them they gave inch of themselves to you. Or to put it another way they were perfect givers rather than many of the test of us, perfect takers. That to me is a saint and a definition of true love, to give, give, give.
If we did not have markers to place us on our way of prayer we might at times have a huge feeling of being simply lost in the desert ,especially in the , 'Nights' of our life ,when like Jesus nailed to the Cross our deepest faith can seem a delusion and meaningless. I think in a special way this was true of St the spiritual daughters of St Teresa who were entering the desert of Carmel. In such an extreme desert like environment it was essential that she lay down markers to let them know where they might be on their spiritual journey, as with the Hebrews a cloud of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night. Exodus 13:20-21 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: St Teresa in indicated these sings draws from her own spiritual experience and the phenomena she indicates she, naturally enough draws from her own personal spiritual life, bolstered I would imagine from the experiences of her own spiritual sons and daughters whom she counselled and whose spiritual life/experiences/phenomena she would have known both intimately and exstensively . These signs were drawn however from a paramount mystic and visionary a great saint, a second Moses , if you will, which is fine. But as Daniel indicates not everyone can mark the passage through the desert as Moses did through raptures and visions. "The Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Ex 33:11). With this contemplative prayer, Moses remained faithful to his mission, conversing at length with God. God spoke "clearly, not in riddles" and Moses was more humble "than anyone else on the face of the earth" (Num 12:3, 7-8). Seeing that God was slow to anger and abounding in love, Moses grew determined in his intercession. He interceded during the Amalek battle (Ex 17:8-12) and asked that Miriam be healed (Num 12:13-14). After the Israelite apostasy, Moses stood "in the breach before God to save the people (Ex 32:1-34:9) . Moses' arguments have emboldened intercessors of the Old and the New Covenant who saw that God will not forsake his people.
Blessed Mother was deeply mystical and full of grace even before the Incarnation as the archangel Gabriel confirmed for us. Yet she too underwent a deepening relationship with God through Jesus' mysterious disappearance in the temple for 3 days and again during His 3 days in the tomb. Do you have any thoughts on this, Padraig?
Your insight and wisdom is profound Padraig. I was told by a priest friend I had the gift of 'actual grace'. Maybe you could expound on this. Sometimes I see myself in situations and see how its going to go, ie giving a speech, praying over someone, talking to someone important etc. so I literally don't have to work at it at all, I know what to do and what to say! I'd say this is a tremendous gift. I laugh and say God must know how dense I am and want me to do it His way, cause my way would be wrong...lol
Also, I was given two gifts by St. Nicholas on the Feast of St. Nicholas two years ago of the same thing. This was the gift of understanding. It doesn't work when I am tired, but when I am rested, my mind becomes so full that I HAVE TO WRITE OR TALK. I think one of these days our Lord will have me speaking in public. I also laugh again, one gift wasn't enough, it was two--a double dose. I must be a tough skin to get through! Good thing God has a sense of humor!
I will reply to Daniel first Marti, then your good self. You know until you mentioned it I never even thought of relating the three days Jesus was lost in the Temple to the three days before the Resurrection which goes to show how , I suppose superficially I have thought about this great mystery. A priest was talking about scripture in a sermon the other day. He said its not the scripture readings we think we understand but the sections we KNOW we do not in which the Power of the Holy Spirit is working most powerfully. I have been gnawing on the bone of this Mystery for more years than I can count and still cannot get nowhere near even beginning to understand it. The nub of it for me is the question, 'Why one Earth did Jesus not tell His parents what He was up to?' Of course He was God He could do as he liked. But even so kindness and common courtesy would surely seem to dictate that He give them at least the nod and wink before taking off , leaving the poor pair frantic. I guess I'll have to wait to heaven to find out. But curiously I find the fact that I do not understand everything very comforting in itself. I am uneasy with people with the easy answers. Is there a day in our lives when we are not confronted with questions with no discernable answers. It is a huge comfort to me that Joseph and Mary were sometimes left chasing cats up trees that they could just never catch. One time years ago my brother and his wife, both 26 and their two year old daughter were all killed in an automobile accident While the coffins were in the front parlour my mother a women of huge faith asked me the question, 'Padraig why did it happen?' When she asked me this question she wasn't looking for some general theological or philosophical answer; she wanted to know the actual hard answer as to why it happened. I had to look at her and say in all honesty I just did know. I could not chase that particular cat up that particular tree. It cheers me up endlessly to know that Mary and Joseph couldn't catch the darned cat either, sometimes.
TODAY OUR POPE : Benedict XVI concluded: “Dear friends, to the extent that you are faithful, you will also be worthy of faith. We know too that the faithfulness proper to the Church and to the Holy See is no ‘blind’ loyalty, for it is enlightened by our faith in the One Who said: ‘You are Peter, and on on this rock I will build my Church.’” We MUST believe in Miracles!
