What 'Pope Francis' really thinks is the question you are raising. I don't want to know. I do know that the miracles of Fatima are real. The sun miracle of 13 October 1917 was witnessed by tens of thousands of people. Witnesses included sceptics and atheists, such as Avelino de Almeida, reporter of the socialist and anti-Catholic newspaper "O Seculo". It follows that the First Secret of Fatima is also true. This secret or mystery was a vision of hell. It was given by the Mother of God to Jacinta Marto, Lucia dos Santos and Francisco Marto on 13 July 1917, refer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_Fátima A photograph of the visionaries was taken around the time when they had the vision of hell, I think. The look on their faces speaks volumes. As I understand it, the relevant picture is this one: https://wp.en.aleteia.org/wp-conten...-apparition-our-lady-portugal-2-pd.jpg?w=1920 God bless!
It is an irony of fate that one of the three little shepherds of Fatima who saw hell has the same name as the "current shepherd," who seems to reject the existence of eternal torment.
Saying that the Novus Ordo is irrelevant is a bit too far, imo. Looks like this might have been warranted. https://covdio.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/LetterToParishioners.pdf
This is my diocese and I know the Bishop from being a part of the finance committee for the Diocese. This Bishop is a good man and very conservative. Had it been the prior Bishop, I would have serious concerns about what had happened but in this case, it was warranted as pointed out above. I don't see how a priest from the pulpit can declare that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated in the current Roman Catholic liturgy is irrelevant. What these priests were saying is no different than the views of the sedavacantist. I just don't think you can have that view and still be in good faith with your local Bishop and are doing great harm to the sacrifice of the mass and bringing great heartache and confusion to all those who are not a part of your parish. I do like this parish a lot and how they worship but you can't insinuate that all other masses are thus invalid. Even though they didn't say that, they are clearly insinuating that. This also occurred almost a year ago now as the new Bishop was very new. Like I mentioned before, the prior Bishop was absolutely awful in my book. He was a woke liberal and always concerned about politics. He was very political and very pompous if you ask me and many other devout Catholics in the diocese. Many in the know were thrilled at the appointment of Bishop Iffert and so far so good.
It is sad to write but some parts of Traditionlism are pretty toxic , as I suppose any liturgical strand in the Church may be Sometimes maybe a tiny bit holier than thou, or in some kind of holiness competition.
You make some excellent points. As Bishop he may have had no other choice. He had to uphold the validity of the ordinary form of the Mass. Even good bishops are being forced into conflict with good priests. Its a toxic mess. Diabolic.
There is that element. A kind of Jansenism dressed up in new clothes. Or like the Catars in St Dominic's time. Its very sad because Fr Shannon Collins is in all other ways an excellent priest. As was Fr Altman. I suppose these last years have become so difficult that some priests are like the newscaster in that old movie "Network". The classic scene at the window of the sky scraper when he starts shouting "I am mad as h*** and I am not going to take it anymore." Its no laughing matter. Its a tragedy for everyone.
They have a saying in Rome which rings so true, 'For my enemies nothing, for my friends everything'. Which accounts for why we have so many bad Cardinals and Bishops.
Traditionalists are simply orthodox Catholics; traditionalism is not a “liturgical strand.” If it seems traditionalists are “toxic,” it’s because the Church at large is asleep and completely unaware of the urgency of this present time. They have been victims of liturgical abuse for almost 60 years now; abuse victims tend to be shrill when no one will understand and recognize their obvious abuse status, in this case one of the highest order. Restoration of something resembling the Mass of the Ages and the cessation of the NO Mass will be part and parcel of the Triumph and restoration of the Church during the era of peace. Catholics then will look back in abject horror at those who complacently accepted the NO without objection or comment in our time. Is the NO valid and licit? Of course! Does it represent the active will or the permissive will of Our Lord? Obviously the latter. https://padreperegrino.org/2024/01/scattered/ “The Church Shall Be Scattered.”—Cardinal Manning Father David Nix Today we are going to look at what two British Cardinals of the 19th century wrote about the last group of Catholics. The first paragraph comes from Cardinal Newman: This is what I have to say about the last persecution and its signs. And surely it is profitable to think about it, though we be quite mistaken in the detail. For instance, after all perhaps it may not be a persecution of blood and death, but of craft and subtlety only—not of miracles, but of natural wonders and powers of human skill, human acquirements in the hands of the devil. Satan may adopt the more alarming weapons of deceit—he may hide himself—he may attempt to seduce us in little things, and so to move Christians, not all at once, but by little and little from their true position. We know he has done much in this way in the course of the last centuries. It is his policy to split us up and divide us, to dislodge us gradually from off our rock of strength. And if there is to be a persecution, perhaps it will be then; then, perhaps, when we are all of us in all parts of Christendom so divided, and so reduced, so full of schism, so close upon heresy.—Cardinal Newman, Lecture 4, The Persecution of Antichrist, 1838. Notice that Cardinal Newman shows that the loss of faith will be more subtle than what most Catholics expect. He wrote, “Satan may adopt the more alarming weapons of deceit—he may hide himself—he may attempt to seduce us in little things, and so to move Christians, not all at once, but by little and little from their true position.” But now, even conservative non-traditional Catholics are awakening to see that the heresy of modernism has fully unveiled itself in all its ugliness. We probably got here because we were seduced “in little things,” as Cardinal Newman wrote. Although there are many bloody Christian martyrs in China and Egypt today, those who stand for orthodoxy in the West may also be fulfilling the above words of Cardinal Newman in a pattern of white-martyrdom: “After all, perhaps it may not be a persecution of blood and death, but of craft and subtlety only.” The other Englishman, Cardinal Manning, also wrote about his predictions of the final age of the Catholic Church back in the 19th century: The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. …Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church.—Cardinal Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861. Notice that the Cardinal predicted a day when the true Vicar of Christ would be “driven away.” That day, he asserts, would be concurrent with Rome “return[ing] to its ancient paganism.” Does this remind anyone B16’s forced-resignation being followed by Pachamama worship? It also seems Cardinal Manning practically prophesies the effects of Traditiones Custodesupon the entire TLM-community: “Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs.” I write these things not to depress traditionalists, but to show that the Catholics found on God’s side at the end of time have been prophesied to be in the extreme minority. So, keep the ancient faith and liturgy and you’ll be on the winning team, even if your tribe be very small.
Not all Traditionalist Narratives by any means are toxic, but some are. I think that may be why they so often fight like cats and dogs amongst each other. I know they are very often badly treated but I have the uneasy feeling that if some of them were in charge they would be much harsher on others. I love the Traditional Rite, but I don't buy into a lot of the baggage. I bought the horse so to speak, but that doesn't mean I want to buy the carriage. I have been reading Traditional output since I was a teen, since Archbishop Lefevbre. My parents were Traditionalists. I would be concerned that some Catholics believe because they attend the Mass they have to buy into the whole sheebang; they don't. Pope Benedict was very,very wise indeed on all this. Very far sighted.
Agreed. I am in a group and half of them are rad trads I call them, because they are quite evil to anyone who does not agree with them or may go to NO Masses. They despise Pope John Paul 2, Divine Mercy and any priest who doesn't insist on Latin Mass. I don't think God wants it this way.
No I was thinking with what is going on in the Church at the moment we could all of us end up the same way. For instance I would probably have loads more in common with a lot of Protestant Congregations than I would with many German Cardinals and Bishops. They are far,far,far more extreme than Martin Luther ever dreamt of. So sad. Our Poor Church. I am sure many Catholics looking on from somewhere like Africa feels the same way. Its so tragic. I would say many Protestants are far closer to being Catholic than very many of own Cardinals.
Fortunately that extreme element in traditionalism is shrinking away due to the “biological solution” and the present reality of traditional Catholicism is one of young families with many children, who have none of the baggage of the prior generation of trads. While the older harsh “rad trads” have a disproportionate voice online, it’s this younger vibrant and zealous cohort, who have found and love tradition for its own sake and eschew the shrill rhetoric, who will be and are taking over the movement. As the NO church continues to fade away, THIS is the future of the Church.
Clear and true, faithful and precise, a word that cuts to the heart of our dilemma. We are safe if we remain under Our Lady's Mantle! Our Lady of Victory, pray for us!
A partial quote from the Pope: “It is my hope, then, that the participants in this year’s Forum will be mindful of the moral responsibility that each of us has in the fight against poverty, the attainment of an integral development for all our brothers and sisters, and the quest for a peaceful coexistence among peoples,” wrote Francis. Our hope is in Jesus Christ alone, He Who is Prince of Peace! 2 Thess 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in all ways. The Lord be with you all.
