Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer kicked out of Christchurch, New Zealand

As Lay person you are not under any obligation to be obedient to
the Popes personal opinions.

 

This is an important point.

 

We do live in a hard and confusing time, but this is precisely why Jesus stresses obedience and humility... These keep us safe. It is not "tradition" that keeps us safely in God's fold, if that tradition is trying to be practiced without its head, the pope. The Catholics that were practicing the Tradition we love through the last couple millenia were in union with their pope. They did not leave him. The ones who left him became something else, not Catholics.

This order may believe they are providing something very important to the faithful, but in truth, when they provide the Mass and sacraments in disobedience to the bishop, they are causing great harm and scandal. No saint ever went ahead and continued public Masses and the sacraments when forbidden by their bishop. When you read about the saints, you see that this happens often. Bishops unfairly accuse these holy priests and remove their faculties, and the holy priests are docile and obey, even if it greatly pains them inside. Jesus often allows this so that the humility of His saints can be tested and proved, and we little ones, the lay people, can know that these saints truly love God and not themselves. It is self-love to believe that what you have to offer the world is so important that your bishop has no right to tell you to stop. It is pride disguised as "obedience to God first." Remember that Christ has always told His saints that they must do what their superiors say, even if it contradicts what He himself tells them. This is because we can be mistaken sometimes in what we believe God is telling us, and He doesn't want us to trust ourselves, because then the devil can easily deceive us.

I believe God is testing His faithful who are holding fast to tradition. He is purifying us through trial, and separating the obedient from the disobedient. That is why He is allowing the Church hierarchy to shut many of us down, push us into gymnasiums and basements, and the popes to misunderstand us. He is testing our love and fidelity. Do we truly love Christ? Are we willing to give up our beautiful holy traditional Masses and all those wonderful things we enjoy in our traditional parishes, to pick up our crosses and follow Him in meek obedience to a Church full of corruption? Do you not think that Christ Himself is meek and obedient to these corrupt prelates? He comes immediately at their words to be present on their altars and received by unworthy men even with mortal sin on their souls. He was and still is a meek Lamb led to the slaughter. Are we better than Our Lord? Too holy to submit to sinful Church prelates?

Who is it who will rescue and reform His Church? Will it be us, or Christ? Shall we go on in front of Him and do it ourselves, in our own way, in the way we love, that avoids the suffering of giving up our beloved traditional Mass? Shall not Jesus then say to us, "Get thee behind me, Satan!"

No, we must follow Him meekly, as lambs led to the slaughter. Stay in the fold, and you will follow Him then to the glorious resurrection of His Church. And He WILL do it. Trust Him!

 

I was not obedient. However, at the time we were supposed to protect granny and Pope Francis said it was moral issue. I thought that according to Cannon Law we are supposed to submit our intelect and will to the Pope in matters of faith and morals. However, I deemed it to be the case that Pope Francis at the time simply was not well informed enough in the science pertaining to this matter for his declaration of a moral obligation to take the vaccine to be valid. I do hope it was alright for me to make that judgement.

 

You have explained this beautifully. I agree 100%.

 

I watched his video and he never gave us orders to take the vaccine. It was an appeal.

That being said, for those who did take the vaccine purely out of love and desire to follow the wishes of the Holy Father... The worse that could happen as a result was physical suffering/death. And as terrible as that is, we all must suffer and die. This world is not our home. My own dear father-in-law most likely had his death brought on faster because of the Covid vaccine, and that is very sad to think about, but he had a holy death and, please God, is now in Heaven.

Anyone who obeys out of love in anything but sin is rewarded in Heaven.

But no, Pope Francis never ordered us to take the vaccine. He shared his personal beliefs and his own personal hope that we would take it. And I do believe that anyone who chose to take it based on humble following of the pope was probably spiritually rewarded more than I was, who chose not to take it based on my own personal bad feelings about it.

This is a whole different situation though. Priests must obey their bishop when he tells them to cease offering public Masses. That's his authority.

 

I know that there is the most terrible and unjust persecution of the Old Mass and of Trads generally throughout the World particularly in the USA. Frankly it is obvious that they intend to pretty well wipe out Trads or drive them into Schism.

I also understand that this is a time of the gravest confusion when even the greatest saints would be tested in knowing what to do or think about things.

I have a huge love for the Old Mass myself.

But everything we learn as Catholics from the Church herself, Scripture, from the testimony of the Fathers, the Saints, the Mystics teach us that obedience is always, always always the touchstone to spiritual authenticity.

I have the very greatest sympathy for these poor men. But disobedience is never the way.

In fact they are doing the very thing that their evil persecutors want. Going into Schism and disobedience. Now these wicked people can point at them and laugh and say that they were right all along that Trads are nothing but trouble. In other words they are doing exactly what their enemies hoped they would do.

It was the same thing with Archbishop Lefevbre, he was a very good holy man but he was wrong to be disobedient. Nothing good ever comes of disobedience, God can not bless such a thing.

 

My heart does go out to them, but this is not the way. They are only proving their evil enemies right.

 

Ah, Purpleflower, you have a humble heart of gold.

As I recall, concerning the debacle of 2021, Pope Francis expressed the view that covid vaccination was a moral obligation because one's own health and life as well as the lives of others were at stake, and that rejecting vaccination was “suicidal denialism”. So consequently, those Swiss Guard serving in the Vatican who refused the covid-19 shot, were fired. Were they ever re-hired? I do not know. But there were casualties.

Now the above situation you are discussing is somewhat different, because with the vaccine one was dealing at first with a moral dilemma (fetal cells), that was later proven to also include negative health consequences. Perhaps Pope Francis came to regret his firing of those guards? Anyway...

Concerning the tension between the TLM and the Novus Ordo, the argument has somewhat shifted, if one believes that both liturgies are valid (they are). The issues now focus on continuity with our rich liturgical patrimony versus obedience to the Vatican who currently believes the Novus Ordo to be the unifying expression of the Latin Rite parishes (apart from the other historically honored Liturgies of our sister Churches). As perceived by the Sons of the Holy Redeemer, this slow, but what can arguably believed to be an ever tightening noose, will lead to a complete suppression of a Liturgy that many claim Pope Pius V stated should never be abrogated.

What a sad, sad quandary in which the devil has opportunity to advance his divisive agenda!

Thank you for choosing the path of humility and obedience.

 

It is a bit of a conundrum to me and I am trying to explore or untangle it.

I am not saying he ordered us to take it. But I think a case can be made that the logic of my argument still stands. The logic is this:

1. The Pope said we should take the vaccine out of love for others.
2. Cannon law says that we are obliged to submit our intellect and will to the Pope (and the Biships united with him) in matters of Faith and Morals.
3. The Pope said it was a moral issue. I think he said it was our moral duty to take the vaccine.
4. Therefore, we are obliged to be obedient to the imperative.

Now, I was not obedient and I am left looking around for some way out of this imperative.

I judged that it was not as simple as Pope Francis said it was at the time - that it was a complex issue and could be immoral to take the vaccine when all known facts were taken into account. Was I right in following my conscience?

Now, while we lay people are not obliged to obey our Bishops in mere ecclesial or worldly matters, the religious take vows, usually of poverty, chastity and obedience.

Now this is where I might be on shaky ground: if it concerns a matter of Faith, and the religious person knows their Scripture and Catechism, and sees clearly that the things they are required to give their assent to are not in accordance with Scripture, Catechism, the past Magisterial teachings of the Church - then they have an enormous problem. Can they remain true to their consciences?

 

I took it as a purely prudential matter as did many moral theologians at the time and thus not obligatory.

In other words it was purely his personal opinion

 

In the same way, if he had asked that everyone buy electric cars that would be prudential, not obligatory

 

Or to put it another way it was outside his authority. Purely a matter of personal opinion.

 

Prudential.

A matter for prudent discernment.

 

So it is not enough for a Pope to simply say something is a moral issue. It could still be a prudential issue if it cannot be demonstrated to be a moral one by some alignment with Scripture, the Catechism or Cannon of the Faith, or the Magisterial Teaching Tradition of the Church - unless it is proclaimed ex cathedra by the sitting Pope to be a moral obligation and not a prudential one. That could be one way to frame it.

 

He could have said in case more general sense that in times of medical emergency we had a duty of charity to help ensure the safety of others. That would have been fine.

Were he over stepped the mark was in being too specific.

 

https://www.hli.org/resources/what-is-the-role-of-conscience-in-moral-decision-making/

 

I can see where you are coming from, maybe you are right. The way I see it:

The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer have holy and thriving Oratory, very traditional. Their charism is tough, including much focus on penance. The modern world cannot cope with this.

Some members of the congregation were unhappy with their practices and went to the media to complain. I think this behaviour is perhaps a bit weak and immature, and perhaps not done in good faith. Why not just leave the congregation instead of causing a scandal? There are plenty of Catholic parishes in Christchurch.

Following the media attention, the Bishop then expelled the Sons from the diocese. I think this is a harsh decision.

So what are they supposed to do? Fr. Michael Mary explained in the video that they have parishioners who moved to Christchurch and bought property there and indebted themselves simply to be able to attend a traditional Catholic parish. Are the priests supposed to just leave those faithful behind? I strongly recommend watching the interview given by Fr. Michael Mary, it was posted here in this thread.

God bless!

 

Padre Pio went through the same thing. Many of the saints did. But they were still obedient.

To cut yourself off from Rome is to leave yourself in a little boat in the middle of a great sea alone with no anchor.

Where do you go from there?

More tellingly where is your anchor? Your authority?

The age old authority of the Protestant and that's what these poor people are now, they are Protestants. Fine.

But who do they look too for authority and from where does that authority spring?

I am right and you are wrong? How long can that last?