Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer kicked out of Christchurch, New Zealand

Following the media attention, the Bishop then expelled the Sons from the diocese. I think this is a harsh decision.

I would describe it uncharitable and harsh, even after weighing all factors. To have a contemplative community within one's diocese is a great blessing. The graces surpass the negatives. Instead it turns into a liturgical war.

 

None of this takes away from the duty of obedience.

 

Thank you dear Mario, I am so glad you think this way. I have always admired your charity and wisdom, knowing full well that you are not a 'Trad', but I think your charity is awesome. About the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, my heart goes out to them. This is a very difficult situation indeed. Yes, obedience, I can see the point of view of Padraig and PurpleFlower et all. I am not sure. My heart just breaks for the Redemptorists, as I know many of them personally.
God bless all here!

 

Don't burn your brains about it thinking about it.

Burn your heart out praying about it.

Turn to Mary and ask her what she thinks about it in prayer then do it.

Can you imagine for one single solitary second that the Mother of God would advise you to rebel against Rome?

I mean really?

 

Praying for the situation

 

Thank you so much, dear Agnes, thanks to all here who are praying. I will keep praying, too.

 

I agree that probably 99% of the time, we best serve Jesus and his church through humility, obedience, prayer, etc.

However Father Michael Mary speaks truths when he says the "Synodal church" which is being built is a clear attack on the monarchical hierarchy established by Jesus Christ. Deceptively, our religious leaders never define terms, but the synod goes on and on and on and it won't stop. A democratic system is being built which destroys the church. This is only one point of many that Father makes which are worthy of our listening.

Father says a problem with the laity is that everyone just wants their Mass and sacraments and no one wants to fight for Jesus and his church. According to him the bishops and priests and laity all have a role to play in defending what Jesus built. The question is what is our obligation to God in this battle? As Stephen Kokx points out the response of most Catholics is: 1) Ignore what the pope does, 2) Keep your mouth shut and 3)Pray. Father asks the question: "At what point does silence become a betrayal of the faith"? At what point does silence become religious indifferentism which Father calls the "perversity of the wicked"?

From my interactions, I believe Stephen Kokx is 100% correct. Also, I believe the questions Father raises should be discussed and probably should be a part of our examination of conscience during these times.

 

But think of the rich graces and blessings that this order's white martyrdom could bring down on the Church through their obedience! There is a reason why God allows His saints to be unjustly treated, even by His own Church. We must see past the human point of view on this, and see with God's eyes. He tests His sons like gold in the furnace! It is obedience in the face of injustice that is heroic!

 

Yes! I believe obedience is wedded to both humility and trust in the sovereignty of God.

 

Thank you, Padraig!

 

My parish is an FSSP parish. We have the TLM, the traditional sacraments, the whole nine yards. Our priests are so strong in their faith, all my sons have responded by wanting to be a priest. We all long for Mass each week and my husband gets only 3 hours of sleep every other Sunday due to his work shift so we can drive the 1.5 hours each way to Mass every Sunday. He does this willingly, even though he must then turn right back around and drive all the way back to go to work again.

Our pastor, when Traditionis Custodes came out and we were all filled with worry, addressed it with us. He told all of us to pray for the Church but to remain humble and trusting and faithful to the pope. He warned against becoming angry or rebellious. He said God would fight our fight for us, but that we also should have a humble attitude and know that we are not owed the TLM. It is a gift from God. It is not our right. And if we should lose it, we will do so humbly, and continue praying for our Church.

The FSSP chose to go the route of humbly respecting the pope and putting everything into Mary's hands. All FSSP parishes across the world participated in a consecration to Our Lady. All of us laity did the prayers and preparation at home and at church, and we gathered all together on the Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes to make our official consecration of the FSSP to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Miraculously, on that day, Pope Francis chose to meet with some representatives of the FSSP, where they pledged their loyalty to him and humbly asked him what they must do as an order, since it would be very difficult to follow the directives of TC and stay true to their charism. And Pope Francis surprisingly told them to continue what they do and that there wouldn't be any changes for the FSSP.

Mary took care of us because we humbly placed all of our trust in her and God. We didn't get angry and take matters into our own hands.

This is what God does for His children who place all their confidence in Him. And don't think that the FSSP doesn't care what is going on in the rest of the Church. We are praying for the Holy Father and our whole Church, trusting in God to restore the Faith and steer the Ship safely into harbor. This is what everyone should be doing. Talking and criticizing and digging in our heels cannot achieve even a fraction of what God achieves for those who humbly place all their confidence in Him.

 

Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

 

It doesn't matter how people may feel about the Bishop, they must obey anyway.

 

The FSSP is an excellent religious order that you are blessed to have. I wouldn't be so sure that humble submission is why the FSSP is still allowed to offer the Latin Mass. It could be that the powers that be have not gotten to them yet. Incrementalism has been the approach to destroying Latin mass and other religious communities -- like a frog in boiling water. The Redemptorists in the video were 1st ordered to only have 1 mass per week rather than 21 . Also they were prohibited from performing other sacraments. As Father said, many families had moved a very long way just to be close to their community. So the bishop tightened the noose to the point that the Redemptorists felt they had to speak out. Thinking that could not happen to your Latin mass community is interesting.

That said, I think you're missing the point of my post. Would there ever come a time when you would feel compelled to stand for the truths of the faith against the hierarchy? Would there ever come a time when you believe it would be sinful not to act or speak up against the hierarchy?

 

There is something in the church known as the primacy of conscience where the church hierarchy are not supposed to tread, because this is a personal connection with God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_conscience

A well formed conscience should be in alignment with church teaching. But if suddenly the church authorities start back tracking or changing direction expecting everyone to be obedient even though it goes against the conscience, you can tell them where to go with their authority. Remember, they are here to serve God first and foremost.

I should also add that Catholics have been doing this for some time now. Tuning out Pope Francis and now tuning out Pope Leo. If you look at the amount of likes that Pope Leo gets on X they are very low. Often below 2k, but he never gets ratio'd which I believe is a kind of favor from X. It's nice to see the primacy of conscience in action.

 

I never said I think nothing will ever happen to the FSSP. Remember I said that our pastor told us that the TLM is a gift, and not a right. We will not be disobedient, because we believe in the primacy of Peter. It hasn't come to that yet because thus far, the FSSP is under the protection of Our Lady.

About 15 minutes from me there is a small novus ordo parish with a faithful young priest who was offering the TLM once a week up until a few months ago. We got a new bishop and this priest was told to discontinue the TLM. He humbly obeyed. I'm proud of him for this. He is continuing to offer very reverent Masses ad orientem with Latin included where he can. The parishioners all kneel at an altar rail to receive Communion. He is a very good and holy priest, and I believe God will reward him for his obedience.

The priests at my parish are on fire with love for God and it is obvious that they work hard at personal growth in virtue. These men are truly dying to themselves, trying to serve God and others without fanfare, and they radiate holiness because of this. I could not imagine them talking about their bishop the way that priest talked in his letter. I can tell who is humble and holy and has a father's heart, with a great love for the souls in their care, and when they tell me I must be willing to sacrifice my personal desire for the TLM if the bishop so decrees, then I will indeed make that sacrifice.

When would I speak up against the Church hierarchy? When they're commanding sin. And only in any particular situation in which I personally need to speak up. I am a nobody and don't think God generally needs me to speak against His prelates. And if He ever did want me to, I would do it with reverence and charity.

I did actually write a letter to Pope Francis once. A private, respectful plea. Who knows if he ever actually saw it, but I did try to do my part, along with prayer and sacrifice.

 

Blessed Solanus Casey , the Capuchin Friar from Detroit used to say something very strange way back in the 1950's. He used to say that America should always stay Faithful to Rome. People back then used to wonder what on Earth he meant by this. After all way back then why on Earth would people not be Faithful and obedient?

But now of course we know exactly what he meant as we are now living in the times he forecast. Father Solanus was right back then and he is right now.

However what is to come in the future we should not waste time on very soon there will be no Rome, no Vatican and no visible Pope. Gone in flames.



https://www.newsweek.com/russia-trump-war-kremlin-putin-summit-us-sanctions-10883129

 

During these times, CS Lewis' final book in The Chronicles of Narnia series, 'The Last Battle' is resonating more and more with me. I read this series to each of my children during our homeschool days. At the time, The Last Battle was my least favorite because that's exactly what it was -- the final war between those who followed the ape of Aslan the lion, symbolizing Jesus, and the true followers of Aslan. The final test was that each person had to engage in the battle by entering the loud, raucous war taking place inside a shed. As they did they entered into Aslan's never ending world of continuous creation. However there were many who refused to engage the battle, especially the dwarves. Following the battle they remained sitting in a tight circle looking only at each other and never seeing the unending world about them. They had refused to engage.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen predicted that the anti-Church would grow within the true Church. Sheen called it the ape of the Church. Father Michael Mary, a priest of many decades, may be describing this ape of the church in his interview with Stephen Kokx. He's watched the decline of the Church and regrets the comprises his order has made. The criticism of these priests who are standing up to what they see as true evil is most troubling to me. The corollary to this criticism are statements that those who who want to discuss these things are wrong; as Stephen Kokx said there is a pervasive attitude that we should shut up and pray. Our role as laity is to obediently follow our bishops and pope no matter what. It's above our pay grade and certainly not humble or holy to do anything else.

If there are theological and philosophical arguments regarding why we must always obey the church hierarchy, please share them. I am ignorant in this regard.

There were likely many good willed Jews who chose not to follow Jesus out of obedience to their religious leaders who they likely knew were corrupt. Following Jesus required a lot of reasoning because they were turning against the Jewish religion built through the will of God and uncomfortable because they were 100% rejected by their culture. If you read the New Testament the religious leaders are slammed by Jesus and the apostles as being Satanic.

What if standing up to the evil within the Church is part of our Lord's final test? Will we engage the battle or just wait it out? I don't know the answers, but I think openness to discussion about serious problems disposes us to making better decisions if and when the time comesl. Discussion should be welcome not criticized. Further, I think it's uncharitable to criticize the clergy who are speaking out unless it's to debate a specific point they're making.

 

I think there are no fit all solutions. For instance a Carthusian monk , to take an extreme example, might not be called to enter the active fray. Or the parent of a large family with loads of financial and personal pressures.

It's a matter of listening and responding to the Spirit. Of not saying or doing things just for the sake of it.

But my guess would be that amongst the clergy in particular many, many , many are keeping quiet for what they would claim is prudence and it is really cowardice. Especially amongst the higher clergy.

 

Taking the posture of prayer and trusting in God is a good point, we see this play out in scripture repeatedly. There are also times to fight back in scripture. Even though the two appear to be conflicting, they both are acceptable positions. I also do not necessarily see them as mutually exclusive, in that we can fight back while praying and trusting God has this already handled. From my point of observation it seems like certain things need to play out currently on all fronts.