Apparitions, Prohesies, The signs of the Times and the Futur

I will find out within two weeks, thanks for the prayers!! :wink:

 

By chance I saw a nice little piece from a reader in 'Spirit Daily today , which bears on what I was going to say:

'And then I picked up a little book by St. Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer. In it he says that people see only the flat surface, but that when you lead a spiritual life, God will give you things like dimension, volume, and color. I believe that is what happened with the clouds. I am not the judge of whether I lead a spiritual life, but I do try to love God."'


This I think is so true, the world and all that is in it changes when we pray. We see things more deeply, hear the voice of the Spirit more clearly, the whole world becomes new. One of the men at work was talking to me and he said, 'I cannot understand you Padraig. Every time I look at you you are always smiling and laughing. What makes you so happy?' Well just one thing faith. But what Saint Jose Maria is saying is so true, a deep , deep spiritual reality becomes apparent in how we view the world:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 confirms this: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the Mind of Christ."

God not only desires for us to intimately know "the things that are freely given to us" by Him, but He also wants us to judge all the things that happen to us, not through our own eyes (own mind), but from His Mind (through His Wisdom, Counsel and Knowledge, etc.).

"He shall make him of quick understanding [renewed thinking] in the fear of the Lord. And he shall not judge after the sight of his [own] eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his [own] ears; but with righteousness [Mind of Christ] shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth..." (Isaiah 11:3-4)

 

Hi Padraig: I'll be praying that your employer recognizes what an asset you are and that things work out the way your hoping.

If you remember, I speculated a while back that the "A" in the Garabandal prophecy stands for "apparition" of a worldwide scale, which leaves it open for a lot of different images. I'm expecting the Divine Mercy to manifest Itself then, but I'm open to other possibilities . . . so, I'm thinking about yours. Such a vision of Mary would be a recognizable heavenly endorsement of the Catholic Church (leading Protestants home), then again, so would the rosary appearing around Jesus (as in my dream) . Either way, I hope that I'm able to respond in with trust and faith.

 

Padraig,

In 1926, in Tuy, Spain, Sister Lucia experienced an awesome vision of the Holy Trinity that tied together the Triune God, the Redemption, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. With a special emphasis on mercy, this vision also included Our Lady with her Immaculate Heart exposed, standing to the left of the main action. I have a prayer card depicting this vision upon which I love to meditate.

I bring this up because, like you, I believe that Our Lady will play a role in each of our personal Illuminations. Yet, like that vision in 1926, I don't believe the humility of this Holy Virgin will eclipse the love and mercy of Christ. I'm not saying an apparition of Rev 12 would do so, but no matter what, God will still be center stage. Mary will be there pointing the way to Christ.

Isn't it marvelous, though: in the divine image God created man, male and female he created them. Though a mere creature, relative to Christ's glory, Mary reflects perfectly the necessary feminine aspect of the divine image; she is always at her Son's side without distracting us from his gaze! Praise God for the warmth and love of so gentle a Woman! Praise God for a Mother who so williingly and faithfully covers us with her mantle!

And praise God for the broad sweep of your brush, Padraig, which helps me understand the awesome scope of God's Plan. Keep writing! 8)

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

 

Well Deanna and Terry I suppose very, very few of us know of what the Illumination of Concience will exactly consist. Maybe the Medugorje seerers and a very few others do (maybe the Popes) but as for the rest of us , well its fun trying.

The reason why I think it will be heavily Marian in character, is not to overshadow her Son, Our Lord God Jesus Christ. the Messiah and the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. Cardinal Ratzinger said that these are 'Marian Times', because the apparitions are mostly Marian led. I think if you look at the predictions in the Book of Revelations for the End Times Jesus Himself comes to the fore. I think for these times, The Tribulation Mary comes more to the fore. Just as she carried her Son in the womb and brought Him forth then so she will do now. A kind of hallway and a Sign of Contradiction. Also, as Deanna says it would be the greatest possible sign of the Triuth of the One True Church.

But I am only speculating myself!! Who knows??? Whatever it is it will be marvellous anyway!!! :shock:

I can't help noticing how close Sister Lucia's description is to the vision at Knock, Ireland. I was walking round the bust hospital grounds yesterday looking at the hundreds of people bustling about and thinking of this Great SIgn, it seems so unreal, but people have such a real need and hunger for it. I went to Church last night but could not go to mass because there was a crowd of young ones drinking in the Church grounds so I could not tie my dog up outside. I was looking at them they seemed so lost and unhappy. I read of the death of Keith Ledger the star of Brokeback mountain, he had everything and yet at the end , like so many stars he had nothing at all. May God have mercy on his soul.

 

The voice of the Holy Spirit, of the indwelling God is very light and gentle, like a small breeze or the tinkle of falling rain, at least it is usually. In this God respects both our freedom of choice and our need to grow in faith. Speaking more loudly might endanger both, to our cost, though He can speak much more loudly if need be. One of the most beautiful passages in Scripture to illustrate this is in the First Book of Samuel:

The First Book of Samuel
Chapter 3

3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.

3:2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see; 3:3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep; 3:4 That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.

3:5 And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down.

3:6 And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.

3:7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.

3:8 And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child.

3:9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.

3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

3:11 And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.

3:12 In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.

3:13 For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.

3:14 And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.

3:15 And Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of the house of the LORD. And Samuel feared to shew Eli the vision.

3:16 Then Eli called Samuel, and said, Samuel, my son. And he answered, Here am I.

3:17 And he said, What is the thing that the LORD hath said unto thee? I pray thee hide it not from me: God do so to thee, and more also, if thou hide any thing from me of all the things that he said unto thee.

3:18 And Samuel told him every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is the LORD: let him do what seemeth him good.

3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.

3:20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the LORD.

3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.



Now note that neither Samuel nor Eli recognised this at first as the voice of the Lord, the Lord had to speak three times before He got Smauel on the right track. Its the same with us , the Lord often has to repeat Himself over and over before we are able to take notice. Taking notice of the Lord takes time, it is the listening skill and grace that prayer over time gifts us with. Also notice that here Samuel goes to his Spiritual Fsther Eli for advice, just the very same thing we do when we go to our confessor or spiritual director. But note that even Eli takes a little pushing before he arrives at a proper discernment.

Samuel was young here and I think it is the most wonderful thing we can do for children is to teach them to pray;

And thou shalt teach Them [His Commands] diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou SITTEST in thine house, and when thou WALKEST by the way, and when thou LIEST down, and when thou RISEST up" (Deuteronomy 6:7)

Suffer the Little Children to Come Unto Me
For, Of Such is the Kingdom of Heaven
"And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God"
(Mark 10:13-14).

Except ye be converted, and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 18:3 ).


For if a child learns and learns early that the,

Luke 17:21
21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[a] you."

The child need never be lonely or unloved or without guidance as indeed young Samuel was not without the Word of God.

I think it is often very possible to sense even very good people without a sense of this mystical inner voice, even very good people. They have an idea of a God who is, 'Out there' and there religion tends to be one of rules and regulations. For instance they tend to see the Church in terms of an organisation and of earning their way to heaven. There is often a severity, a certain harshness to their spiritual and world view. The Spirit of course still dwells within , but they have not learned the necessary listening skills, they address God as a High Figure, 'Up there' , remote and severe and somewhat unreachable.I also think it can make such folks very,very uncomfortable with the Mystical,and the Supernatural, the miraculous and anything out of the ordinary. They will see such occurances as part of something that only happened in the Bible or too very great saints. So they close the doors to a way of innocense and spiritual childhood that cuts them off from well, the very centre of Catholic life. They have not truly taken Christs words to Nicodemus seriously;

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God!"

...and where is the Holy Spirit?/ Why most importantly , the Kingdom of God is within, He lives in our hearts!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Padraig,

You said, "The voice of the Holy Spirit, of the indwelling God is very light and gentle..."

A few comments: Sometimes Christ chooses to unleash a driving wind within the soul to awaken the beloved child to His Presence. One such gift has been called either the Baptism in the Holy Spirit or the Release of the Holy Spirit. The danger of this grace-filled torrent is that by temporarily side-stepping the Cross in order to reveal the Pearl to what were blind eyes, those eyes, now captivated by Love, might subsequently resist the Cross.

Such was my experience.

As Jesus led his Apostles from Tabor to Jerusalem to reveal that his Love is sacrificial, so the Cross reveals to our heart the demands of that mystical inner voice. In his sovereignty, God chooses the path by which each of us comes to hear that inner mystical voice, and by which each of us embrace its demands.

I believe in the near future the Lord will use the Warning/Miracle and, subsequently, the Chastisement, to offer all his blind children the opportunity to first awaken to his Loving Presence, and then, secondly, to be inwardly refined by the demands of the Cross. The still-blind children who refuse will be those who unknowingly force the Cross upon those who accept the invitation. Those who embrace that Cross and survive the Chastisement will revel in the Era of Peace. Sadly, the blind will be swept away and never experience the rising sun of righteousness, with healing in its wings(see Mal 4:1-3).

We Children of the Woman will be asked to be instruments in the hands of Christ, teaching the once-blind how to carry the Cross during the Chastisement. Like a man who has grown slack in his training, I need to once more focus on my Crucified Lord and be ready to help instruct those the Warning/Miracle will bring. Mary, Queen of Peace, pray for us!

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

 

Last week my Polish Pastor asked if I would start praying for those who are "puffed up", those who think their accomplishments were real acts of self, those who are blinded by the thought of their greatness, those who will fall the hardest and might fall into despair rather than enlightenment.
Please help me in these prayers, I know they come from hearts with great love.
Lee

 

A Good prayer, Lee. A good prayer.

I think Terry, God gives us a honeymoon period in the Spiritual Life. Rather like He said about putting new wine into old wine skins:

Luke 5:33-39

[33] They said to him, "John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking."

[34] Jesus answered, "Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? [35] But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast."

[36] He told them this parable: "No one tears a patch from a new garment and sews it on an old one. If he does, he will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. [37] And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. [38] No, new wine must be poured into new wine skins. [39] And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "

Also in the Song of Songs we see the Lord coming to the soul as a handsome young lover, to woo the soul. But after catching the soul's attention He leads the poor old soul a merry dance:

9 My beloved is like a gazelle or a young hart; behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh in through the windows, he peereth through the lattice.

10 My beloved spoke, and said unto me: 'Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Then the soul seeks Him:

Chapter 3

1 By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth; I sought him, but I found him not.

2 'I will rise now, and go about the city, in the streets and in the broad ways, I will seek him whom my soul loveth.' I sought him, but I found him not.

3 The watchmen that go about the city found me: 'Saw ye him whom my soul loveth?'


It was just the same after Pentecost, the Great Feast of the Holy Spirit, then the Great martrydom.

 

Just a few words on discernment of mystical phenomena. I came across a very useful document on the internet which I'll past on at the end of this post. Its the '1978 Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith document on apparition discernment' and if I've time I will highlight the little pointers they give for discernment.

There are two great errors we can fall into with things like visions. The first is to simply close the door to all such phenomena as either dangerous or useless. To do such a thing is rather like a householder who locks and bolts the door and will open the door to no one. Fair enough by doing this he will keep all evil people out, but he will of course also keep good people out as well. As was told to us by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, says the Lord, that I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. And moreover, upon my servants and upon my handmaids in those days will I pour forth of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.… And it shall come to pass that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'" (Acts 2:16–21).


But it is not simply a matter of shutting the doors of our hearts to all comers, we would be almost equally derelict if we only opened the door of our hearts to one or two chosen, cowering in fright behind our doors, constantly thinking that every caller could be evil. If for instance we were to have a rule that we only believed in Church Approved apparitions then Lourdes for instance might never have gotten off the ground. Since most private revelations and alleged apparitions never receive the approval of the Holy See Catholics must often judge for themselves whether they are credible. The first Lourdes Apparition occurred on 11 February 1858, but never gained Church Approval to many years later. It would be scandalous to suggest that no pilgrims should ever have gone there for all those long years. Padre Pio lived under a show from the Vatican for most of his life, but no one would ever suggest that the hundreds of thousands of devout Catholic pilgrims who visited him were wrong to do so.

The second major fault is to be over credulous were visions are concerned. This is like the householder who foolishly lets every stranger into his house. Foolish because many visions, like many strangers are evil and false. A variety of this is someone who bases their spiritual life on visions. Such a person is like someone who will only eat cakes and cookies, rather than the solid meat of the daily practises of the faith.
What is required is a mature balance and knowledge of the criteria for judging such things, much of which simply boil down to common sense. For example in our everyday life we are constantly making value judgements from our experience and judgement on people and what they say, for good or ill. We need neither be afraid of such a process of discernment of spirits and being able to make them, behaving like frightened rabbits. Neither should we be gullible and accept all things at face value.

A very good example of how such discernment of Spirits comes from Our Blessed Lady, Queen of Prophets in the Fourth Joyful Mystery of the Rosary, The Presentation of the Child Jesus in the Temple:



Luke 2, 22-38
When the days were completed for their purification according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, just as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord," and to offer the sacrifice of "a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons," in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord. The child Jesus is Presented to God

Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. This man was righteous and devout, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the holy Spirit was upon him.

It had been revealed to him by the holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Messiah of the Lord.

He came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus to perform the custom of the law in regard to him, he took him into his arms and blessed God, saying:

"Now, Master, you may let your servant go in peace, according to your word, for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and glory for your people Israel."

The child's father and mother were amazed at what was said about him; and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day with fasting and prayer.

And coming forward at that very time, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were awaiting the redemption of Jerusalem.



Now note how Mary treats this prophecy. She is seen neither bolting the door of her heart to it , neither is she shown simply taking it at face value, no Mary's way should be our way.

"As for Mary, she treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Luke 2:19). His mother stored up all these things in her heart." (Luke 2:52) ..

But neither should we take such occurences as a matter of course. Notice how both Joseph and Mary were 'amazed' at what was said about Jesus. Also of course the Arcangel Gabriel at the Annunciation cautioned Mary, when she was troubled not to be afraid:

9 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary,

So it is wrong to suggest that such events may not frighten , amaze or cause us trouble and concern. The words of Simeon very clearly point to the Passion and death of Mary's only son and her own very terrible suffering:

and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."





So the idea that prophesy or visions should always give a warm happy. clappy glow of peace and joy is very much a mistaken one.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God may often in such events be about to place a well needed kick up the the ass to those who need it and we should be open to this as well as the peace and joy and feel good aspects.Few of us could not do with a big hug or a good, stiff kick up the ass, at some time or other.

1978 Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith document on apparition discernment (in French) - the sections in italics are opening and closing remarks by Joachim Bouflet - these remarks and the text from the CDF are taken from his book, jointly authored with Philippe Boutry, Un signe dans le ciel, (Grasset, Paris, 1997), pp. 396-99.

© Joachim Bouflet & Philippe Boutry, 1997
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith elaborated, from 1974-1978, some new criteria for discerning apparitions and revelations, which were expounded in a normative text, which, for a long period, was only made available to the Ordinary [local bishop] who, confronted with the fact of an apparition, addressed himself to the Sacred Congregation. These standards govern the treatment of events after 1980 (notably Medjugorje), and they also brought about the resumption of certain previous investigations (those of Bonate and Garabandal, amongst others):

Preliminary Note: Origin and character of these norms.

At the time of the Annual Plenary Congregation during November 1974, the Fathers of this Sacred Congregation studied the problems relating to apparitions and supposed revelations, and the consequences which often result from these, and they arrived at the following conclusions:

1. Today more than formerly, the news of these apparitions is spread more quickly among the faithful thanks to the means of information ("mass media"); in addition, the ease of travel supports more frequent pilgrimages. Also, the ecclesiastical authority was itself brought to reconsider this subject.

2. Similarly, because of current instruments of knowledge, the contributions of science, and the requirement of a rigorous criticism, it is more difficult, if not impossible, to arrive as speedily as previously at judgements which conclude, as formerly happened, investigations into this matter (“constate de supernaturalitate, non constat de supernaturalitate”); and because of that, it is more difficult for the Ordinary to authorize or prohibit public worship or any other form of devotion of the faithful.

For these reasons, so that the devotion stirred up among the faithful by facts of this kind can appear as a disposition in full communion with the Church, and bear fruit, and so that the Church itself is able to ultimately distinguish the true nature of the facts, the Fathers consider that it is necessary to promote the following practice in regard to this matter.

So that the ecclesiastical authority is able to acquire more certainty on such or such an apparition or revelation, it will proceed in the following way:

a) Initially, to judge the facts according to positive and negative criteria (cf. below, n.1).

b) Then, if this examination appears favorable, to allow certain public demonstrations of cult and devotion, while continuing to investigate the facts with extreme prudence (which is equivalent to the formula: “for the moment, nothing is opposed to it”).

c) Finally, after a certain time, and in the light of experience, (starting from a particular study of the spiritual fruits generated by the new devotion), to give a judgement on the authenticity of the supernatural character, if the case requires this.

I. Criteria of judgement, concerning the probability at least, of the character of the apparitions and supposed revelations.

A) Positive criteria:

a) Moral certainty, or at least great probability, as to the existence of the fact, [revelation] acquired at the end of a serious investigation.

b) Particular circumstances relating to the existence and the nature of the fact:

1. Personal qualities of the subject—in particular mental balance, honesty and rectitude of moral life, habitual sincerity and docility towards ecclesiastical authority, ability to return to the normal manner of a life of faith, etc.

2. With regard to the revelations, their conformity with theological doctrines and their spiritual veracity, their exemption from all error.

3. A healthy devotion and spiritual fruits which endure (in particular, the spirit of prayer, conversions, signs of charity, etc).

B) Negative criteria:

a) A glaring error as to the facts.

b) Doctrinal errors that one would attribute to God himself, or to the Blessed Virgin Mary, or the Holy Spirit in their manifestations (taking into account, however, the possibility that the subject may add something by their own activity—even if this is done unconsciously—of some purely human elements to an authentic supernatural revelation, these having nevertheless to remain free from any error in the natural order. Cf. St Ignatius, Spiritual Exercises, n. 336).

c) An obvious pursuit of monetary gain in relation with the fact.

d) Gravely immoral acts committed by the subject, or his associates, at the time of the facts, or on the occasion of these facts.

E) Psychic disorders or psychopathic tendencies concerning the subject, which would exert an unquestionable influence on the allegedly supernatural facts, or indeed psychosis, mass hysteria, or other factors of the same kind.

It is important to consider these criteria, whether they are positive or negative, as indicative standards and not as final arguments, and to study them in their plurality and in relation with the other criteria.

II. Intervention of the competent local Authority

1. As, at the time of a presumed supernatural fact, worship or an ordinary form of devotion is born in a quasi spontaneous way among the faithful, the competent ecclesiastical Authority has the serious obligation to inform itself without delay and to carry out a diligent investigation.

2. At the legitimate request of the faithful (when they are in communion with their pastors and are not driven by a sectarian spirit), the competent ecclesiastical Authority can intervene to authorize and promote various forms of worship and devotion if, assuming the criteria given above having been applied, nothing is opposed to it. But there must be vigilance nevertheless, to ensure that the faithful do not regard this way of acting as an approval by the Church of the supernatural character of the event in question (cf. above, Preliminary Note, c).

3. By virtue of his doctrinal and pastoral duty, the competent ecclesiastical Authority can intervene immediately of his own authority, and he must do so in serious circumstances, for example, when it is a question of correcting or of preventing abuses in the exercise of worship or devotion, to condemn erroneous doctrines, to avoid the dangers of a false mysticism etc.

4. In doubtful cases, which do not involve the welfare of the Church, the competent ecclesiastical Authority may refrain from any judgement and any direct action (more especially as it can happen that, at the end of a certain time, the supposedly supernatural event can lapse from memory); but he should not remain less vigilant about the event, in such a way as to be in a position to intervene with swiftness and prudence, if that is necessary.

III. Other Authorities entitled to intervene

1. The foremost authority to inquire and to intervene belongs to the local Ordinary.

2. But the regional or national episcopal Conference may intervene:

a) If the local Ordinary, after having fulfilled the obligations which fall to him, resorts to them for a study of the event in its entirety.

b) If the event assumes national or regional importance.

3. The Apostolic See can intervene, either at the request of Ordinary himself, or at the request of a qualified group of the faithful, or directly by virtue of the immediate right of universal jurisdiction of the Sovereign Pontiff (cf. above, IV).

IV. Intervention of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

1. a) The intervention of the Sacred Congregation can be agreed to be necessary either by the Ordinary, after he has fulfilled the obligations falling to him, or by a qualified group of the faithful. In this second case, vigilance is necessary so that the recourse to the Sacred Congregation is not motivated by suspect reasons (for example to force, in one way one or another, the Ordinary to modify his legitimate decisions, or to confirm the sectarian drift of a group, etc.)

b) It belongs to the Sacred Congregation to intervene of its own accord in serious cases, in particular when the event affects a broad portion of the Church; but the Ordinary will always be consulted, as well as the episcopal Conference, if the situation requires it.

2. It belongs to the Sacred Congregation to discern and approve the way of acting of the Ordinary, or, if it proves to be necessary, to carry out a new examination of the facts distinct from that which the Ordinary carried out; this new examination of the facts will be done either by the Sacred Congregation itself, or by a commission especially established for this purpose.

The present norms, defined in the plenary Congregation of this Sacred Congregation, were approved by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Paul VI, on February 24 1978.

At Rome, the Palace of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, February 27, 1978.

Francis, Cardinal Seper, Prefect, Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P., Secretary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a question of avoiding a reading too strictly legal on the fact of the apparition. By taking into account various factors up to that point neglected or ignored, in particular the mechanisms of inculturation, the contribution of the social sciences makes it possible to locate the apparition in the historical and sociocultural context where it finds at the same time its roots and its application. This recent approach lays down new pastoral orientations which, without calling into question the traditional criteria of the discernment of the spirits, authorizes a calmer reading of the event and its integration, its insertion in the life of the ecclesial community: more and more, the basic community that is the parish, the communion which is the diocese, becomes the place and the test bench of the mariophanie; even when the latter remains a phenomenon of popular Christianity, it must itself respond to the expectations of the Church-communion, and not only of that of a limited section of the ecclesial community.

© Joachim Bouflet & Philippe Boutry, 1997

 

There used to be an old, old joke that did the round of religious hoses.

A novice goes to the novice master and tells him that he has seen Our Lady in the Chapel. The old priest replies, We'' ask Our Lady to do me a favour for you the next time she visits you, will you?'
'Certainly', the poor unsuspecting novice replies, 'Ask her to help you pack your suitcase and to get on the bus with you when you are both leaving!!' :lol: :lol:

Which goes to show the understandable suspicion of any degree of mystical experience in the Church . Sometimes I suspect being a declared Satanist would be met with a warmer welcome!! :lol: :lol:

Not that this is altogether wrong. Anyone who has had a look at the messages and apparitions being touted on the internet can only come away with the sinking feeling that 99 times out of a hundred or more the people concerned should themselves be put on the bus back home. This is in line with the teachings of Saint John of the Cross and other masters of the Spiritual Life of great caution that must be exercised where such phenomena are concerned.

 

This is very informative especially how to judge the seer on grounds of honesty , moral character etc. and the issue of monetary gain is very important.
There is mass confusion at the moment amongst followers of certain visionaries. If this criteria were applied people might be better able to judge and distance themselves
from the 'visionaries'.

Thanks for all this information Padraig.

Happy St Brigids Day.

Mary

 

I can't believe Easter is rolling round so soon , Mary, the earliest since 1913!!! I am not sure but I think that advice is , basically he criteria used by the Vatican;s professional theologians in using discernment of mystical phenomena. :wink: Though there is one more which I think is not mentioned that the messages be relevant to the Church and the world. If for instance a visionary just endlessly keeps repeating, 'Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you, Jesus loves you'....well thats true and goes with Church teaching and Scripture but it has no new insight to add. It would be like a newspaper headline that said, 'Ireland is an island', which is very true of course, but leaves you thinking, 'So what???' :shock:

 

I suppose you could put general Catholic thinking on mystical phenomena on or between tow extreme goal posts. On the side those who do not believe or negate all mystical phenomena, (including places like Lourdes and Fatima] and may even either reject or play down very,very much even Christ's miracles in scripture. On the other extreme you have those who base their whole life on the mystical phenomena , running between vision to vision for answers rather like a shopper constantly looking for sale bargains. Rather like a Catholic version of a New Age Guru.

The Church has left Catholics incredibly free to make their own minds up where between the goalposts they stand. This, in opposition to the believe of many, say Protestant commentators that Catholics are the victims of some kind of 'Thought Police' .But you have only to surf the internet, for instance to see that Catholics have a very,very wide divergence of opinion in what to accept or not to accept about such phenomena. My own personal experience is that most Catholics have no great instance in any such phenomena at all, at this time, which is telling in itself.

So is there an ideal attitude to such phenomena? I think the answer has to pretty close to that of the Church, that it's make your own mind up time. Saint Thomas the Apostle, 'Doubting Thomas' is a very good example of someone taking his own stand.....

 

My own favourite quote on how to approach belief in mystical phenomena comes from Pope Urban. It used to be often found on the front of Catholic books on such thigs:

Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation

His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)


So that Pope Urban, so very long ago urged an 'Open door' policy from Catholics towards such things. This is often very different from the attitude that is general now towards such things, especially perhaps amongst the clergy themselves. Rather than the door being opened it is often not only closed but bolted, armour plated and you would need a sledgehammer and explosives to get through it. I think maybe this firmly closed and locked door policy can, sometimes do harm. For instance in cases of diabolic possession or infestation there is often a tendency to do what secular folks do and 'Psycholgise' such phenomena. For instance its noticeable that although every Diocese in the Catholic Church is supposed to have a Diocescan exorcist very few do so. In the Protestant Churches the situation is even worse with Ministers sending victims onto priests and priests themselves referring folks straight on to head shrinkers. Not that in most cases it is not the devil, but there are genuine cases and , given the state of the world they are getting more and more common, with witches and Satanists, through New Age popular culture and the decline of faith getting more and more popular. However the worst thig about such a policy is that it 'Quenches' the Spirit. The Bible ,for instance is full to the very brim with stories of miracles, angels, interventions of the Devil, divine interventions and the miraculous. There is in fact hardly any page of the Bible that does not give account after account of such goings on. Not just the Old Testament but the New Testament too. Nor is it only Christ Himself, but after the death of Christ Himself the Apostles worked miracles. Nor is it only after the death of Christ but the Fathers of the Church and through Church history in the lives of the Saints. Not only in the lives of the Saints but in the lives of ordinary Catholics, holy and not so holy. You have only for example to turn to a site like 'Spirit Daily' to read account after account of the miraculous and supernatural.

 

Padraig,
I have been thinking that the negative attitude to the mystical is like the passage in the gospel where Jesus healed the man with the withered hand on the Sabbath and the Pharisees were really annoyed and were furious with him. It says Jesus was angry with them because their hearts were closed. They couldent recognise the wonderful thing it was for this man to have his hand restored, all they could focus on was how they could entrap Jesus and put a stop to him. Thats how it is today. I know that there are many questions raised about visionaries but I think its better be cautious in condemning just take the good from what you have heard and dont throw stones. Let the church make the decision which it seems to be doing more and more.

Mary

 

I think that's very good insight, Mary.

Darrell

 

Yes Mary , I was thinking that there are three good instances when a , Closed door policy didn't work too well. The first is when the two angels visited Abraham to tell him he was going to have a son in his old age and Sarah, his wife laughed openly at the idea. This didn't go down to well with the angels!!



Genesis 18

1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

{as a side line to this later Lot's wife had a closed door policy to the angels when they warned her not to look back , she did so and was turned into a pillar of salt}


The second instance I think of is in the New Testament when Zachary, the father of Saint John the Baptist disbelieved the angel that announced his birth and was struck dumb as a result:

'And it came to pass, when he executed the priestly function in the order of his course before God, according to the custom of the priestly office, it was his lot to offer incense, going into the temple of the Lord. And all the multitude of the people was praying without, at the hour of incense. And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zachary seeing him, was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and they wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: and thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And he shall convert many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias; that he may turn the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the incredulous to the wisdom of the just, to prepare unto theLord a perfect people" (i, 8-17). As Zachary was slow in believing this startling prediction, the angel, making himself known to him, announced that, in punishment of his incredulity, he should be stricken with dumbness until the promise was fulfilled. "And it came to pass, after the days of his office were accomplished, he departed to his own house. And after those days,Elizabeth his wife conceived, and hid herself five months" (i, 23-24).'

Mary gives a good example but one that is very striking and I think may give insight to the dangers after the Illumination of Concience is when the Pharisees not only had a closed door policy but actually turned the Holy Spirit up on his head by accusing Jesus of actually performing his miracles through Satan. In other words they did not deny the miracles but misattributed them!! Jesus in turn in what is in my view the most scarey passage in Scripture tells them that there is a sin that will not be forgiven, the sin against the Holy Spirit. In other words there is something in this sin which leads directly to hell!!!!!

This is very ,very important because when the Illumination of Concience and the Great Sign comes there will be those who will claim false reasons to this great miracle. This will be a sin against the Holy Spirit, the unforgiveable sin!! The very,very,very worst kind of closed door policy you could ever have!!

Matthew 12:31-32 (Larger context: 12:22-37)

31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

32 "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the {age} to come.

Mark 3:28-30 (Larger context: 3:20-30)

28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;

29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

Luke 12:10

10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.

 

Its very easy to see, from Pope Urban's advice the first part of Christ's instruction, 'Be you innocent as doves' but its slightly less easy to see the second part, ...AND BE YOU AS SUBTLE AS SERPENTS'.

Be as subtle as serpents, and as innocent as doves (Matthew 10.16)

Isn't Pope Urban's advice then an invitation to be gullible and let our guards down? I don't believe so. the invitation to having an open door to the mystical is not an invitation to shut down our minds and end discernment. There are some very obvious signs of falsehood that can lead us to turn away at once from the false at once. For instance if the false prophet or visionary goes against scripture and the teachings of the Church, if she or he is disobedient, if there are clear signs of mental illness or attempts to make money, if there are signs of pride or dishonesty, these may very well be at once apparent. But the serpent can indeed be subtle and it may be he comes as scripture warns as an , 'Angel of light' However give a man a long enough piece of rope and he will indeed hang himself. If we store these things in our hearts truth and falsehood will emerge more and more clearly over a period of time. For instance Padre Pio was rejected by senior clergy over a very long period of time. It was the ordinary Catholic people , the humble and the poor people of Southern Italy who took him to their hearts. Jesus said, 'By their fruits you shall know them' and over such a long period of time, by storing these things in our hearts we can see Padre Pio was a saint and the Church has confirmed this. Medugorje is another example. The apparitions have been ongoing for a considerable period of time, since 1981 and we have a huge number of apparitions and messages, millions of people visiting and so we have a huge amount of evidence to store and weigh in our hearts. Any lies, any false hoods would never have stood the test of time. Like an old wine turned to vintage or turned sour. This for me is the surest proof of the veracity of the visions there, they stand the test of time, store them in our hearts, as we will, they still bring forth a good wine.

Jesus mentions in the gospel this week how the Sadducees and Pharisees at first accepted John the Baptist and how they rejected him . A good heart brings forth good fruit and a bad heart, bad,. But if our hearts are good and the Holy Spirit of Wisdom and good counsel is there we have little or nothing to fear from deception. I once knew a priest who had a reputation for being very holy and a miracle worker. On one occasion a childless couple visited him and asked for his blessing so that they could have a child. Almost at one the lady became pregnant. The doctors said this was impossible, physically impossible and himself described this occurence as a miracle. In fact the priest was a paedophile and was later jailed for a series of offences. Nevertheless I have no doubt that a miracle was worked there, brought about by the great faith of the couple who approached the priest. So we have what Pope Urban said confirmed. There was nothing sinful in the couples innocense, the open door of their hearts, God saw their good will and blessed it with a miracle.

Two very good examples of false prophets whom we could at once turn away from and close the doors of our hearts at once are the False Prophets Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormanism and the False Prophet Mohammed.Both go from their false visions at once against scripture , both in fact invent new scripture, for Joseph Smith The Book of Morman and Mohamed the Qu'ran, both of course were not obedient to the Church as well. effectively though false prophets , because they build their house on sand , their houses will not stand. Look for instance at the intense difficulties Mormonism is facing reconciling and trying to change many of Joseph Smiths false utterances {in the origins of the American Indian for instance} and how in Islam many of the teachings of the Qu'ran pose immense difficulties...{in the treatment of women for instance} and the inconsistencies of Sharia Law..

The true basis for true discernment is that we have pure hearts ourselves. 'Blessed are the pure in heart for the shall see God', for if there is purity of intent, we shall as Pope Urban says never truly be decieved, for God who sees the secrets of mens hearts will cause good to come even from those who intend lies and evil. Like Daniel who walked into the fires and the den of lions our pure intent will cause us to be unharmed and will even work good from intended evil.

 

I think my own attitude towards the mystical and supernatural I try to be gentle and charitable and open. Say a friend says somethings , or shows you something new. Because she is your friend and you love and trust her you are open to what she says. This does not mean you are being gullible in your trust, the door of your heart is open and you invite her in to join you and listen to what she has to say and look at what she has to show you. Then you store these things in your heart and the Spirit in your own heart shows you the truth or otherwise of what you have experienced and ...if it is of God it bears fruit in your heart.

Other people have other much harsher and severe ways of viewing such phenomena. They remind me of horse judges who wait to see how fast the horse runs, how high it jumps and if it doesn't perform to their expectations they are inclined to dump it as an old nag or a heretic. The big problem with this , it seems to me is a lack of LOVE, of CHARITY. The first danger is that we be uncharitable to the brother and sister who brings us these things, being to quick and harsh to condemn them. Even if they are mistaken, or false or even lying , they are our brothers and sisters and love must remind us to be gentle and kind to them. Very well later on if they show themselves obdurate false prophets we can harden up our positions a lot but, these are not horses we are judging, they are our fellow human beings. Also if we are like Mary storing these things up in our hearts it is so we may give birth to the truth...and the agent of this truth emerging in our hearts is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Love. Often when we hear people saying, 'This is true' or 'This is false' , it is sadly clear that they are arriving from this stance from a very human position...'I think, I feel'...rather than from one who is praying about these things and storing them up in his/her heart. The fruit of such human thinking is a severity...they judge their brothers and sisters too much like a horse or a dog at a dog show.

Also it seems to me there is a stiltedness about such judgements they are not flowing freely or with comfort, unlike the Holy Spirit , who is a gentle breeze, it is harsh and disconcerting.

I think also that for people who constantly pray God is a friend and speaks to us too in accents of love like a gentle breeze. As a long loved dear friend we become very familiar with His voice and so are alert to His accents when we hear others speak of Him, 'Like speaks to like in the meeting if waters',.

For God and the mystical , the supernatural are not just for the great saints they are for all who follow Christ. Just as we discern the phenomena surrounding the mystics we must discern the God who speaks to us, who shows Himself in our own hearts. For He loves us, He died for us, He is never away from us for He has made His home in our hearts.