Cardinal Mueller on the Reformation

Discussion in 'Positive Critique' started by padraig, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    Thank God there are some shepherds such as Cardinals Muller, Sarah and Burke who seem to remain awake and watchful.
     
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  2. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    I had a stroke. What is your excuse?

    ;-)

    This is drivel. The pope is wrong.
     
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  3. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    200 pages, and to be presented by known Liberals. Sigh. The exhortation of desolation, many fear.
     
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  4. miker

    miker Powers

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    I also believe that it's less about "words" and shouting from the mountains about "truth". The question been asked forever. Remember Pilate asking this of Jesus just after he said:

    " For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."

    And when Thomas pleaded with the Lord, we don't know the way, Jesus said

    "I AM The way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    So I guess for me, I will absolutely "defend" the Roman Catholic Church and not go down paths I see as the right ones. But I feel we are in the tine now where my voice and energy will be more internal and directed to those nearby me - my family, friends, local community who will be open to the truth. Like Pilate, many, including those in the Hierarchy, might say they want to know the truth, but are afraid or simply cannot hear it. Maybe there are ways to reach these too, but my voice will be directed much more "locally" where perhaps I can be more effective
     
  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    Good to see you back.
     
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  6. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I hope you are feeling a lot better Brian. A tough time.
     
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  7. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    Thanks. No rehab staff on Sundays. Doing far better than I deserve or anyone predicted. God is good.
     
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  8. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I think in Ecumentical Dialogue we can fall into two extremes. That of rejecting all such effective dialogue altogether (as I suppose do some Traditionslists) and on the other hand Indifferentiism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indifferentism

    Perssonlly I don't think the Trads are the real danger at the moment but those who Liberals. I fear indifferentism. The Step too far, I think this is what Cardinal Mueller was saying.
     
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  9. miker

    miker Powers

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    I agree with Cardinal Mueller and await what comes of all this. Perhaps like Peter B mentioned, there are nuances that need to be better understood? In any event, as I read this, my mind goes back admittedly unclearly to a message from Our Lady at Medjugorie which is controversial. I think the message said or implied exactly this issue of indifferentism? It was along the lines that God sees us all the same? I'm not challenging anything here, but want to better understand the two points. Again, maybe it's all the nuances that I just am not perceiving. Peace
     
  10. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    Most, or at least many, Protestants aren't Martin Luther. They are in material heresy rather than guilty of the formal kind. They may be greatly in error but we probably have a better chance of correcting them by not ignoring them.

    Also, some Protestants are more orthodox than many Catholics. The fate of social legislation in Northern Ireland clearly illustrates this. Touching matters northern, I am personally greatly indebted to the writings of CS Lewis. For me he was a very safe guide.

    The kind of ecumenism that we must beware is that which intends to find a compromise. The Truth is not the mid-point between two extremes, It is what It Is. If a Catholic and a Protestant agree to meet half way and shake hands all it guarantees is that both have gone wrong. The kind of ecumenism we need is that which propounds confidently the truth and authority of our Church but which listens respectfully and is willing to share whatever common ground that can be found for the sake of Christ.

    The case of Father Hunwicke and his colleagues in the Benedictine Ordinariate are examples of the common ground that may be found. I'm sure there are many Lutherans that are scandalised by actively lesbian "Bishopesses" and might be seeking a way out.
     
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  11. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    We still mustn't discount being deceived by a devil who manipulates a traditionally-minded bishop or cardinal into leading a massive schism while most are looking the other way at the scandals of the liberals. Such a bishop could be highly respected and might have a very plausible and attractive case. The ground is treacherous underfoot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  12. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    This is something that troubles me. I fear for our bishops who aren't in favour of watering down the faith in the name of ecumenism. Holding fast to the promise Jesus made that he wouldn't desert His Church could mean belittlement and suffering for them. May the Holy Spirit grant them the wisdom and courage to know that the Church needs them within the fold.
     
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  13. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

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    I have a friend who had a stroke in his late thirties but he has completely recovered. All you'd see for a while is a slightly awkward walk which he has conquered as well, so it can be done even when some said he'd never walk again!
     
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  14. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

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    Well, for a person who read's his share of prophecy, I am convinced that something big will soon happen in the Church that will start the persecution of those who remain faithful. This theme is current and redundant, especially on Pedro Regis', but many others as well. So the only question to me is how does this great schism take place? It seems probable to me that it involves the very highest level's within the Church. Who falls on which side remains to be seen. What seems to be indicated is that the Church will become very small and very persecuted, but very holy.
     
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  15. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

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    I am reminded of a the message given to Verne Dagenais in GSWYL http://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen said on the Protestant Reformation

    10/28/06 A.M.
    As I was praying at the adoration chapel some thoughts came to me from Jesus. My child I ask you who is here in front of you? It is I, Jesus Christ, present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, creator of the universe. Where and why would you go else where to worship me? You have a tendency to search and read the teachings of other so- called prophets. Remember a true prophet teaches 100%of my truth no error. If you compare any messages and teachings with my Holy word and my church and they are not in agreement, then that teaching is not from the Holy Trinity. God is not the author of confusion. I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me. No one enters heaven without embracing all my truth. There will be no schisms or fighting in heaven. Everyone in heaven knows the truth. Do you realize one of the worst events in the history of the world was the protestant reformation. For it caused division in my church. Here is an example. If you plant a seed and do not water it, it will not grow. But if you water it, it will germinate and in the midst of a garden of flowers a weed can sprout. Many weeds can destroy gardens. So it is with my church. The author of confusion, Satan, spread doubts in my priests, like Martin Luther. Instead of rebuking these doubts, he let Satan water his doubts, weeds grew,and confusion and schism came in my church. This was not my will. Let me ask you a question how much truth do you want? 100%, 50% or 25%? Anything less then 100% of my truth will cause confusion. There is only one source of truth in the universe, the Holy Trinity, anything else comes from Satan. Here is a rebuke to you. When you read and study protestant ministers and prophets, who do not teach 100% of my truth, where is there source of truth coming from? It is not from Jesus. It is from their own imagination or Satan. Remember Satan loves to sow confusion. He is infinitely smarter than humans and he knows the truth. His goal is to deceive mankind. When you read a prophet who denies my church, blasphemes my blessed mother, and profanes my Eucharist, why listen to that prophet, for that teaching comes from one place, the pit of hell. That is not to say I do not work through protestant ministers, because any words of mine are truth. I desire all men to be saved. But many are held in ignorance of not their own fault. But you are different. You have been presented with the whole truth. So why allow doubt and confusion to arise in your mind? If you allow Satan a small seed of doubt, he can make it grow and cause you confusion and even loss of faith. Remember you will be held accountable on the day of judgment to a higher standard for you have the fullness of truth found in the Catholic church. Reference I Corinthians 10:12 and especially for your days Matthew 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christ's and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect." As the days get darker, if you do not know your faith and completely trust in me, you will easily fall away. As evil increases the deception increases. Do not listen to every person's predictions of the future. Remember my primary purpose is the salvation of souls. All events will work out for that purpose according to my will and no one else's. You have a choice: follow false teachers, those who teach partial truth, or follow me completely. Come to me in the Blessed Sacrament and let me teach you along with my holy priests, messengers, and my church. Do not spend your time with those who teach only partial truth. Say, Jesus I trust in you and I will lead you. Finally, you know how to reach heaven by reception of the sacraments, following my words, and the teachings of my church. It is not your duty to try and guess who will go to heaven or hell. Your job is to proclaim my truth as revealed in my holy word and church. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. Again, none enters my kingdom, without embracing my whole truth. For example, no one in heaven will deny my presence in the Eucharist or my Blessed Mother who is Queen of heaven and earth, no matter what belief they have on earth. You have taken many steps forward, do not go backward or you will not survive the tests coming your way and to this world. Again, let me teach you. Why would you go elsewhere, where I am not present body, blood, soul, and divinity? My peace I leave with you and bless you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Your savior and redeemer, Jesus Christ
     
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  16. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I've edited this response a fair bit but it seemed better to have the main paragraphs from the Catechism about the primacy of the Pope placed together.

    881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. 400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." 401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

    100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

    895 "The power which they exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church." 427 But the bishops should not be thought of as vicars of the Pope. His ordinary and immediate authority over the whole Church does not annul, but on the contrary confirms and defends that of the bishops. Their authority must be exercised in communion with the whole Church under the guidance of the Pope.
     
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  17. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

  18. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

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    Cardinal Schonborn, whom the Vatican has asked to help present Pope Francis’ postsynodal exhortation on the family April 8, said that at a parish visit a man told him, “‘Cardinal, the Church is without mercy for we who are divorced and remarried.’ And I responded, ‘Look, it’s true that for us pastors it would be easier to say, ‘Do what you want,’ but there is an obstacle, which is the teaching of Jesus. And I quoted this, ‘Anyone divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery.'”

    The man turned pale, the cardinal said. “I understood that this word of Jesus touched him because he had committed adultery. All of a sudden, it was no longer the Church that lacked mercy, but it was he who lacked mercy toward his wife and he betrayed her.”
     
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  19. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I think that for those who don't know much about Cardinal Schonborn, just having a LifeSite news article about him would be very misleading so I will just post here the quite informative Wikipedia article about him:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Schönborn

    Cardinal Schonborn was, of course, the general editor of the Catholic Catechism and worked closely with Cardinal Ratzinger on the creation of this wonderful work and fruit of Pope John Paul's pontificate.
     
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  20. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

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    For this new presentation of the Family Exhortation. I know where to go and find out what it is all about. Good old Mark Mallett. He is the only writer who can put the high brow stuff into lay mans language for me.

    Rock on Mark. (y)
     
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