I'm not sure about this Dolours. It's pretty well impossible to check the figures. You can't check this online. Folks are so secretive about dough, well to compare the Americans to the Germans , well two totally different cultures. The Germans very ,very Socialsltic. The Americans so individualisitic, so independant..so generous , you know I'd guess at least ..well at leat four or five times the German deal. Do you know that under ,say Cardinal Spellnan of New York after the Second World War Americans carried the Church? Oh I know it's not ltsl about money... bit all the same... k f
@padraig I often wonder whether those MOG forum members who left over criticism of Pope Francis have begun to grasp the reality we face, even if they would never admit it here. How could ANY catechized mature Catholic NOT see the crisis of this papacy?!?
Yes, Padraig, US Catholics did carry the Church through hard times. But times have changed. The abuse crisis in the US has resulted in diocese after diocese going bankrupt, and it looks like there's more to come. Add to that the public dissent from the Faith by prominent priests in the US ever since Humane Vitae, and Catholic schools (especially the elitist ones run by the Jesuits) did a very poor job of teaching the faith. Thanks in no small part to them, very many Americans in former Catholic strongholds have either completely abandoned the faith or are Christmas and funeral Catholics, resulting in a loss of weekly income and closure of parishes. There was also the scandal of high profile Bishops and priests either supporting or turning a blind eye to Catholic politicians actively working against what the Church teaches. Whether intentional or not, they sent a clear message that the party has first claim on Catholics' loyalty. Thanks to the Church Tax, there hasn't been the same steep decline in Germany although it is declining as the older Germans die off and have had their Church funeral. (The German Bishops' new plan to set up their own pseudo Catholic national church is probably an attempt to shore up the numbers ticking "Catholic" on their tax forms.) The Church in the US receives a great deal of money from the Government for social justice projects. That's the main source of income for USCCB Catholic Charities. But that money comes from taxes which are not paid exclusively by Catholics, and politicians can cut it off at any time.
What if the pope is right and the conservative americans are wrong, together with their crazy president who is going to build up the third temple, after the mega trade war, after breaking relations with his closest allies? And after his suicidal war on the God-created nature? Global warming is pretty much real, look at your thermometers how they rise every next Summer! To deny that is to deny the reality, to live in another imaginary world that simply does not exist on this planet! Unfortunately, one man denies it, and multitudes of crowds follow him, because...he said he would stop the abortions (and how many abortions did he actually stop?) Will the USA ever put new kinds of engines to stop the destruction of the planet, where USA is N1 polluting country in the world, followed by the so much hated by them China? What if the Americans in their majority are not among the survivors on the new earth (renewed) as a result of all that? Will they ever want to be rescued in first place? And if the pope kindly noticed much of that saying he is proud to be criticized by the Americans, would they ever understand that pope Francis is NOT their enemy? Think about that before throwing blames on pope Francis, who may not be a saint (and he never claimed to be) but is certainly elected by Divine providence for the crucial times we are living in! Actually, he is very meek. There should be much more action by now, that perhaps the next pope will do. If there is a time for a next one before the cataclysm (Not before the end of the world).
Yes, but you see this is the precise difficulty here. Your post shows we have entered into what is really a political arena. Not a spiritual one. ..and it is the Holy Father who leads us there. I don't think it is the place of a Spiritual Leader to bring people to such a place The phrase, 'Start a row in an empty house spring to mind'. Imagine if we went back to the Holy Land at the time of the Apostles and St Peter was giving sermons about the Roman Emperor being mad and them suffering from Imperialistic Colonial exploitation and the Roman Economic system being irksome. These things may well have been true but God's Kingdom is not of this Earth. I have often thought of St Paul urging us to be obedient to and to pray for rulers. I think the point here is once again our spiritual eyes must be turned inward rather than towards the political. Also the Holy Father is a Father. I think as a Father kinda singling out his American children like this was a bad idea. It was not the action of a loving thoughtful Father.
It's hard to tell for sure Dolours. There seems to me no access online to any financial break down of say, 'Peter's Pence'. I suppose but everyone likes to keep their financial circumstances private.
I agree the pope is first a father, a spiritual leader. But he must react to what happens in the world in 21st century. He does not live in a medieval Europe, the problems today are different including with 7 billion people compared to the medieval population of the Christendom. He must reprimand the american catholics who grow quite conservative if not outright fanatical. And that is not because he doesn't love his american children. On contrary. The american catholics many of them risk to go astray from what the Catholic church in the world stands for. The Catholic church has clearly defined positions on the world problems, and many of these positions are NOT supported by many american catholics. Instead, many american catholics take the political agenda of their main parties as Almost a fight between Gospel and anti gospel. And they are wrong in doing that. As the democrats have gross failures, so are the republicans. So is Trump personally, who promised many things and did very little so far. The american catholics are first Catholics members of the universal church, and only then they belong to this or that political party. Their words show otherwise though. The pope must act on Global warming, because it concerns every living person on the planet, both born and unborn, both catholic and other. We are all gonna die otherwise in not so distant future, if we are too old to not care, then it concerns our children that we must care for. It is suicidal to continue the current course, that runs against one of the main Commandments of God to preserve life. The pope is right to speak about that. The position of Trump is wrong, and the position of many common american catholics who align with him is also wrong. I wonder, will the american catholics support the efforts in the UN on Sept 23 to invent concrete proposals for control of Climate change? (I guess it will be some new kind of energy source, because none of the current energy sources is fully clean or mass available, of course it has to be seen first). Or they will again say that somehow it goes against their understanding of the Gospel? Did the american catholics know it all better than the rest of us, only because they have more money?(due to political and historical processes that I am not going to discuss here). The pope is right to kindly correct the extremity that many in America go into. And they'd better start listening to him, and thank him for his fatherly corrections. And let me end with what I already wrote in the first post. What if the americans are not destined to continue on earth, be it because of a global conflict, or because of non action on climate change? The positions they stand on both issues, are frankly suicidal. One cannot have a war with 1.4 bln China or with the newest Russian deadly missiles,and to hope for survival. Or, in the case of a peaceful scenario, where only the Climate change will determine who survives the incoming cataclysm: how could the americans hope they would survive, if they do not recognize the reality of the climate change despite they live it no less than the europeans, if they do not want to implement measures to protect themselves, rather burn more and more fuel for absurd car trips many times a day (I know it I have been to USA recently), or to air condition their houses while pretending the climate change is hoax? It is especially sad when fanatical priests with expensive cars and large air conditioned property enough for the living of two dozens of monks, not just for two chaplains, who lack literally Nothing, claim that the climate change is not scientifically proven and keep their own fight (not that of the Catholic church) on the back of the poor families deluded to the extend to accept blindly their words...instead of the words of pope Francis, cardinals and bishops. Such fanaticism will lead to nothing good. It is a question of a mere survival. To allow the planet destruction is suicidal, it runs against the Fifth commandment. Therefore it is fully in the obligations of the Holy Father to take stance, and to reprimand his wayward children, no matter if they live in USA, China or Africa. The american catholics are not a higher class catholics, and if they refuse to be corrected, they may end up being among the victims of the processes they deny so blindly. P.S. correction about the third temple: I do not think this is the "antichrist task", the Jews have their right to worship in their own temple in their own country. Jesus himself entered the jewish temples all the time. The talk is very long, and I really have no time for that. Not this, but the lack of common sense and refusal to follow the established international norms is what makes the current US president unpredictable and even dangerous for the world peace and the salvation of the climate. Did he reprimand his friend Bolsonaro at the time when Amazon burns? It is absurd to call a suicidal action or non action a way of the Gospel. IT IS NOT THE WAY OF THE GOSPEL! And good that the pope is bold enough to say it. I can't wait to see the US position on the fight with Climate change in the UN after 3 weeks (september 23). That, and not the rebuilt of the Third temple might be crucial, not just for Trump presidency but for all common americans, including the catholics. All that matters, because unfortunately we share only one planet, all of us 7 bln people. The american catholics do not live on another isolated planet. The pope is absolutely right to reprimand them, maybe too little too late. Because, as this discussion shows, they are not ready to correct their ways. I hope they will soon, for their own good and that of their surviving children.
P.S. And even if the Sun is to blame for the climate change, and that will always go hand by hand with human emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases unprecedented in recorded history, ...still we desperately need the introduction of new energy sources such as Casimir effect and zero point energy, (pls google including arXiv.org preprint server of Los Alamost that give the latest in science)... It is vital not only for surviving of the human civilization but also for surviving of Christianity. If all become "martyrs" due to their negligence to save themselves, then no one will continue it. Let see where America stands on September 23, and where the American Catholics stand as well. For now, Brazil's Bolsonaro declared himself as the villain in what appears to be his political-money game, at the expense of unimaginable burning of forests when we need it least, at the expense of the planet and all of us. I really hope Mr Trump who wants to be considered a Christian, besides other things, will not oppose the world on that crucial UN summit in its attempts to rescue the planet... And what if it is the Sun, after all? Then we need even more the technology mentioned above. Let see who will save the planet, and the Christianity too. Maybe it is not USA at all. Maybe it is Russia, EU...I already said enough, including in previous posts. Pope Francis is doing exactly what he must do. The only critics I have to him, is that he should be much bolder in that. Because the clock is ticking, also for him and the Vatican. No one will accuse them generations later that they did too much, but the survivor generations may well accuse them they did too little, too late, too symbolically, too polite. And of course that is even more relevant to Trump, and the strange way the pope singled out America. Because still America is the leader, or is it? Soon we will see. Could the world be saved without America? I want to see who will be bold enough to propose the energy source changes. That will decide what follows next. The countries that introduce them, have the greatest chance to be saved. If USA refuses, it seals its destiny. And I really won't say anything more. Everyone has his capability to draw conclusions. Hosea 4:6 says: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Well we will agree to disagree. I admit I am a little surprised that you call these people, 'Fanatical Conservatives'. I find them very reasonable. A very good sign of them is that they smile and laugh and joke and seem very laid back. Just regular folk. When I think of a fanatic I tend to think of someone poker faced and glaring. I would describe them as ordinary Catholics with questions. Here is a good response from Raymond Arroyo
"Grow quite conservative"? My friend, what if we have stayed where we once were and it is others who have moved away to the left? I'll freely admit to being conservative, or more accurately orthodox, and of being American. Fanatical? I suppose it depends on who I'm being compared to and who is defining fanatical. If having a rather large family, taking them to mass at least weekly and many time daily, and embracing the timeless tradition of our faith makes me a fanatic in your eyes then so be it. If being skeptical of scientists revising historic temperatures in order to manipulate data to better suit their agenda - as they have been doing for decades - is fanatical then so be it. Time after time we pass these "deadlines", threats of ice ages, and then global warming markers where we can't return from - yet here we are still. I notice that the pope himself travels by private plane, authorized light shows on St. Peters (which presumably used electric and fossil fuels to power), and even you utilized such fossil fuels to post on this board. But I'm sure that is different then me driving my car to work to support my family as my wife home schools our children; that doesn't suit the narrative does it? Are we perfect? Surely not. I'm aware of my own shortcoming both more than I want to know, and I'm sure in ways that aren't nearly enough. But let's get realistic here. These comments, and those like yours, are made out of a disdain for what we stand for and stand on as it comes to practicing our faith. That is, believing and worshiping what the Tradition of our Church and the saints before us have always taught. Things like artificial contraception is intrinsically evil, Divorcing and remarrying is adultery, Celibacy is a treasure to our Church, etc. We do not bend to the "progressiveness" that they have planned. And speaking 100% sure for myself, and what I can almost be certain of for everyone else here who believes as I do, we never will. That is why the comment was made, and that is why there is such a strong opposition to us.
A Pope's first duty is to "Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you". That must always be the first priority of any pope in any century be it 1st or 21st no matter what situation he's reacting to. No sign there that God wills a pleurality of religions. Do you agree with Paul Ehrlich (and presumably the Pope who flew him in to teach the Vatican's Dicastry)? Ehrlich is a proponent of artificial contraception and abortion which directly contradicts Catholic teaching. Here's a sample of Ehrlich's teaching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._Ehrlich Ehrlich became well known for his controversial 1968 book The Population Bomb, in which he famously stated: The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate...[6] which categorically stated that the world's human population would soon increase to the point where mass starvation ensued.[4][5] Among the solutions he suggested in that book was population control, to be used if voluntary methods were to fail. Ehrlich has been criticized for his opinions; for example, Ronald Bailey termed Ehrlich an "irrepressible doomster".[6] However, Carl Haub observed that Ehrlich's warnings had encouraged governments to change their policies to avert disaster.[7] Ehrlich has acknowledged that some of what he predicted has not occurred, but maintains that his predictions about disease and climate change were essentially correct (even though the book never even mentions climate) and that human overpopulation is a major problem. He's the type of person American Catholics don't support. Paul Ehrlich has proven himself to be a false prophet on the issue of how many lives planet Earth can sustain. Why should I trust anything he says now? We Catholics profess at Mass that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life. We profess no belief in Paul Ehrlich. The climate is changing, as it has in the past. Nobody denies that. The question is whether or not we can halt or reverse the changes. Pope Francis has placed his trust in people who teach that we can by, among other measures, reducing the population. I don't trust anyone who promotes intrinsic evil and the Pope has no authority to compel me to do so. Shame on Pope Francis for aligning himself with the likes of Paul Ehrlich against faithful Catholics no matter where they live. Americans, especially American Catholics, give a lot of aid to the poor across the world. Come back and preach to me when you can show me that Pope Francis has baptised Ehrlich.
From Fr. Z's blog: Pope Francis: ‘It is an honor when Americans attack me’ The Pope’s spokesman later clarified that the Pontiff ‘always considers criticisms an honor’, particularly from ‘an important nation’ Pope Francis told a reporter that it is “an honor when Americans attack me.” The pope made his comments to Nicolas Seneze, a reporter from La Croix, the French Catholic daily newspaper, during the flight Sept. 4 from Rome to Maputo, Mozambique. Seneze is author of “Comment l’Amerique veut changer de pape,” which can be translated as “how America wanted to change popes.” Seneze gave Pope Francis a copy of the book during the flight. [The book is stuffed with rubbish from professional bomb throwers like Beans.] Pope Francis said he had heard about the book, but had not been able to find a copy. The volume, currently available only in French, went on sale the day of the papal flight. The book presents the long list of accusations against Pope Francis made in August 2018 by Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, the former nuncio to the United States, as one part of a concerted effort, led mainly by Catholics in the United States, to cast doubt on the legitimacy of Pope Francis’ ministry. Seneze’s thesis is that “rigorist” Catholics, mainly wealthy, are opposed to Pope Francis’ emphasis on mercy over clear rules, [B as in B. S as in S.] his teaching on ethical problems with the way the world’s economy is working, and his overtures to Cuba and China. [You mean the Chinese, who are now being crushed by the government?] After telling Seneze that he had not yet read the book, the pope told him, “It’s an honor when the Americans attack me.” And handing the book on to an aide, the pope commented, “It’s a bomb.” [Whatever that means.] Shortly after Pope Francis returned to the front of the plane after greeting each member of the media, Matteo Bruni, his spokesman, came to the journalists with a statement. “In an informal context, the pope wanted to say that he always considers criticisms an honor, particularly when they come from authoritative thinkers — in this case from an important nation,” Bruni said. [Uh huh.]
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.... But I do trust that God is making straight lines out of the mess
I don't know where Ezdras lives or where he comes from, but what he has written above about the supposed fanaticism of US Catholics like you is typical of their portrayal in the secular press whose journalists take their cue from the likes of the New York Times, Washington Post and CNN. Other than the few conservatives news outlets in the US, there's little or no reporting on the real, in-your-face fanaticism of the American Left. And what little there is rarely if ever reaches the news outside the USA. It was reading and watching the US media online or on TV that prompted me to stop reading, watching or listening to our own national news. I could see the unashamed partisan reporting amounting to nothing more than propaganda. Then I would read, see and hear the same propaganda repeated almost verbatim on our own news coverage of what was happening in the world's most powerful country. They simply couldn't be trusted to report the facts without spin or without manipulating the news through the facts they chose to include or omit. And what I saw in their coverage of international news reflected their anti-Catholic reporting in our own national news. What amazes me about Catholics is that they recognise anti-Catholic reporting in secular news outlets yet trust the same news media to give them balanced coverage of other world events. That some Catholic news outlets are on board with the secular media tells me all I need to know about how trustworthy they are. When I see Catholic reporters portraying Trump as Satan while glossing over the sheer evils actually perpetrated by the likes of Xi in China or the preferred methods of population controllers leading the climate change hysteria, I disregard everything else they say. Flawed though he is, Trump is a whole lot better than anyone being promoted to replace him.
Yes we can agree to disagree and there is nothing terrible in it. I am talking of different things that might be useful to know in the months to come. That's why I post. And not to enter into endless debate with people whom I do not intend to try to make "non conservative". Who is fanatic, sure not you in first place. There are fanatics on all sides. No one has it all right. Not even the pope in his private capacity. I said what I had to say, in spite of the coming events. And I did that before about the apparitions, how do they connect to the knowledge we have after 1960 to be understood (ref. Lucia). It would be wrong the questions discussed to be taken as private matter only. As it seems to me some posters do. And not to touch the data presented, even if my conclusions are all wrong. But that is their own choice. It is not my thing to object every word, neither do I have time for that. If I posted what I posted, it was only because of the urgency of the situation.
One only needs to look at where the left stand on moral issues and it is enough to reject their agenda. Let's see: Abortion (killing of babies) Sodomy Fornication Contraception Adultery/divorce and remarriage Socialism Communism Atheism It is the 'left' who run Hollywood and all their disgusting sex shows, pornography etc.. Just name a few which are objective abominations in Gods sight that the socialists left party endorses. How can anyone who professes to be Christian support these agenda's? The aforementioned sins are what is causing climate change and God's justice! And the left think God is upset by plastic straws and guns, which in itself has never harmed anyone.
