I have had a bad feeling for a couple of years the Latin Mass will be all out banned. The linked article seems to indicate that is the next pillar of the Church to fall, and it seems to me the Church could never be totally overthrown while this ancient tradition was still permitted by the Vatican. I fear this will now happen. Yes the report seems to say all the right things; but every time something is looked at by the CDF these days, it leads to doom and distress IMHO. https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12819/pope-orders-review-of-old-rite-
Sigh. We'll have to wait and see. But what the want to do is one thing. What God will permit them to do is quite another. In either case we must stay obedient. Sigh. Terrible times.
When Holy Mass is offered in the Extraordinary Form, it obtains Great Graces for the world, and gives Great Glory to the Majesty of God. It has extraordinary effects, one can say, and one sees some of those effects visibly in the greater piety and reverence of those who assist, especially in the care with which the Holy Eucharist is treated, and Holy Communion is distributed. Holy Communion should ideally be received kneeling and on the tongue only. That is how devotion to the Eucharist is kindled, and Faith in the Lord's Real Presence is made strong. Surveys in many countries sadly show a small percentage that believes the Real Presence, and Bishops and Priests should urgently be thinking what can be done to awaken and strengthen Catholic Faith in the Eucharist. I hope the Traditional Mass is not banned. The Ordinary Form is fine, but it's like a shortened and simplified version of the Mass. Some of the Sacrificial Prayers, especially in the Offertory and the Canon, from the old Mass have been removed or revised. But there clearly is great demand for the Tridentine Mass, especially among the young. People are attracted to beauty and reverence, and God's Majesty deserves a Supreme Sacrifice offered for His Glory. God deserves our best efforts and highest reverence.
Forgive me, but I am not sure about Medjugorje. I find it interesting and kind of telling that the apparitions stopped with the onset of Corona. So, I'm not sure I would take those apparitions as seriously as, say, Akita, or Soufaniyeh.
It is not, I think, either or, the Novus Ordo or the Extraordinary Rite. I am sure that there are great Saints who prefer to celebrate in either Rite. No more do I think that the Western Rites are Superior to the Eastern rites or vice versa. But I would say one thing about the Old Latin Mass, which is also true of the Eastern Rites. They leave less room for the Devil to creep in , in the form of Novelties and heresies. Also the Latin Mass and Eastern Rites point to God rather than man. It seems to me that very often the priest at the Novus Ordo can become an actor on stage placing forward his own ego. I just think the Old Mass is safer and more prayerful. I prefer it. I don't say this is always the case , but mostly in my experience it is. They are far, far superior Liturgically. On the other hand a Good Novus Ordo mass well said is far better than the Latin Mass badly said.
Ezdra, How the Novus Ordo should be celebrated as exhibited in the above clip and how I experience it in my own parish with my most recent pastor of 2 years, cannot take away from the reality of innumerable abuses that have crept in since 1970. To a large extent how we worship underpins what we believe. It is summarized in the phrase: Lex orandi, lex credendi (Latin loosely translated as "the law of what is to be prayed [is] the law of what is to be believed") is a motto in Christian tradition, which means that prayer and belief are integral to each other and that liturgy is not distinct from theology. I don't believe that rebellious clergy could have contributed to the loss of belief in the Real Presence unless liturgical norms such as those concerning the reception of Holy Communion had become lax and imprecise. When we now have only 30% of Catholics believing in the Real Presence, one can justifiably conclude that something has gone terribly awry in the way the Novus Ordo has been celebrated over the years. Let's not deny this horrendous and undeniable fact when upholding the Church's authority to modify or even abrogate various liturgical reforms. Shortly before the recent shutdowns occurred, I attended my first Solemn High Mass Latin Mass in 50 years. It's beauty which in the early 1960s was readily available, has in my experience been matched by less then 20 Novus Ordo celebrations I've attended since 1970. What should be and what could be possible in the Novus Ordo has not been consistently available in my life since the 1960s. When the churches reopen within the next month or so, I will return to the celebration of the Novus Ordo. But I still stand by the above sentence in bold. Lord have mercy. Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
A for instance there is a young priest at a Novus Ordo Mass I go to who announces at the start of mass, the day of the week it is, the time it is and the date it is and goes on to thank us all for coming. This at every mass. I am sure he means well but it makes me want to scream. He just as this perpetual urge to keep saying things through the mass. It's awful. The priest has no chance to do this whatsoever at the Latin Mass or Eastern Rites. I am there primarily to listen to God rather than the priest. Though a good homily is wonderful. The priest at the Latin Mass I attend gives dreadful homilies. The priests at the Novus Ordo generally preach good ones , though sometimes outrageously heretical ones. So you never can tell/
Yes, Ezdra, my pilgrimage to Medjugorje back in 1987 was a grace-filled event for sure! There was my wonderful wife, Geralyn, myself, and our two oldest, Benjamin (3 yrs old; now a religious priest), and Rachel (1 yr old; now a Mom of 4). Though we witnessed miracles (and 1 we missed), the example of our host family getting up at 6am every morning to pray together inspired daily family prayer for us when we returned home. Miracles, visions, and locutions can't compare to that gift! Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
From reading the Book Lord of this world by Robert Hugh Benson am I right in saying that the Latin mass was banned. Great Online Latin mass from Limerick here. https://institute-christ-king.ie/apostolates/mass-times/
I see there is another thread about this same Topic and it is Headed. Where we go from here. There is more information with links to articles supporting my gut feeling, if anyone wants to read more on this. I do however believe all we can do is Keep Watch and Pray. Come Lord Jesus!
Ezdra I think you might enjoy the website wherepeteris.com I don't honestly but it sounds very much in line with your thinking.
The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum by Benedict XVI states; Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. The Roman Missal promulgated by Saint Pius V and revised by Blessed John XXIII is nonetheless to be considered an extraordinary expression of the same lex orandi of the Church and duly honoured for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s lex orandi will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi (rule of faith); for they are two usages of the one Roman rite. It is therefore permitted to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal, which was promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Church’s Liturgy. http://www.vatican.va/content/bened...otu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificum.html
BREAKING - IMPORTANT - Summorum Under Threat? - Holy See sends survey to Bishops on Summorum Pontificum (Exclusive) https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2020/04/breaking-important-summorum-under.html
I don't want to get into an argument about the efficacy of the old Mass versus that of the new Mass. I'm just curious who you think the priest is praying to at Holy Mass. I hope you aren't suggesting that God doesn't hear the priest's prayers if you can't hear them. Also, my memory of the Mass before all the changes differs from that of your parents. Priests rarely said the words of consecration loud enough to be heard in the pews. Anyway, with no microphones, only the people in the front pews would have heard him. In my opinion, one of the downsides of Mass in the vernacular is that lay persons in the pews think that the priest needs them to make Mass valid, which probably explains how so many pew sitters almost drown out the priest saying "Through Him, with Him and in Him". I have even seen laypersons stretch out their hands towards the host and chalice during the consecration, copying what ordained priests do at con-celebrated Masses. I don't think that the theatrical performances we see sometimes at Mass were the intention of the Church Fathers, but I have no doubt that they were and continue to be the intention of those who use the "Spirit" of Vatican 11 as an excuse to reduce the Holy Sacrifice to a tawdry talent show with a walk-on part for half the audience. If God isn't the focus of what we do at Mass, we might as well stay at home. I'm quite happy with Mass in the vernacular provided it is offered reverently although I would prefer that the priest weren't facing the people which I believe takes the focus away from God. I just don't understand why traditionalists are so marginalised.
It reminds me of the police doing a survey around the neighbourhood asking people if they have ever had a problem with me. As soon as you were to hear of such a thing you'd know they're out to get you. That they're digging for dirt.
I don't remember if this has been mentioned yet on the forum, but a fact that is happening with on-line streaming of the Novus Ordo mass in this Covid19 lockdown times is this: There are 3 persons in the church or chapel - the priest, the cameraman and Jesus in the Tabernacle. And yet, the priest has his back to Jesus throughout Mass. +
Having read through the posts on this thread, some of them make me very sad. However much we may need to share our frustration with all the versions of Holy Mass. And it is not without valid concerns in some instances no doubt. But are we aware, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Priest obeying Jesus when He said "Do this in memory of Me" The Priest in whichever version of the Mass being celebrated, is commemorating the Life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, while offering the Once and for all Eternal Sacrifice of Christs death to God our Heavenly Father, in Atonement for the sins of the world. It is not a time to be entertained, but a time to reflect on how much we have contributed to Christs suffering by our sins, and humbly making heartfelt apologies, and begging for pardon through the merits Jesus has won for us, especially our eternal salvation. IMHO
