Milleniarism, postmillenialism, premillenialism, amillenialism and Catholic Cathechism

Insearch.... there is no one that I know of that does not understand and believe that after the final judgement (the end of the world, not the end of times or the end of an age) there will only be a Heavenly Kingdom. Many mystics and Church Fathers (Father Gobbi, Luisa Piccarreta, Tertullian (155–240 A.D., St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.) to name a few sho surely did espouse the principle of an earthly kingdom, (thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is done in heaven) although not ruled by Jesus physically or so called Millenarianism.

 

Some probably did, but the earthly Kingdom pre-Judgement to come in the FUTURE is not supported by official Catholic Church teachings - neither in Cathechism, nor in the Creed ( as a brief summary of the Catholic faith)
Neither is the Orthodox, for that matter.
St.Augustine actually systematized amillenialism( which originates in 1st century, as does premillenialism or millenialism), which is the doctrine supported by Catholic Church - that so-called Millenium era started right after Jesus Christ Ascension and we are actively living that era NOW - since ~ 30 A.D.

Since I am an Eastern Catholic and our tradition and teaching are very much connected to Eastern Church I was actually a bit surprised of many Roman Catholics flirtations with what is clear-marked as heresy in Eastern tradition - the consideration of the pre-Judgement era of universal love, peace, Church reign still to come, which might take form of the literal milleniarism or a bit subtle, not that literal, but still milleniarism, as is clear from writings of Mark Mallet - the era is not yet here, it is in the future - that it what is millenialistic in the concept vs the one where millenium era is considered to be lived in, since the first century.

 

I think you are missing Mark's point. He is also referencing papal words, CDF statements, Church Fathers, and St. Augustine, who apparently enumerated at least three simultaneous positions on this, none with certainty. One of which is the one much of the church ascribes to (and is the one you are citing).

 

I think there IS reference to the PRE-Judgement existence of the Kingdom of God. Just not in its fullness. I think Mark may be proposing a progression of that Kingdom, though not its completion or perfection (which can only happen at the end of time).

CCC:
763 It was the Son's task to accomplish the Father's plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent.160 "The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures."161 To fulfill the Father's will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church "is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery."162

Characteristics of the People of God
782The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history:
- It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202
- One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism.
- This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people."
- "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple."
- "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205
- Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race."
- Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207

 

If you take it as starting after Christ's Ascension - yes. But not as a future event yet to happen, and that is what I underline everywhere - we live in it and it has been here 2000 years almost and it is not in the future - what is in the future is the End of times and last Judgement.
The lines you colored actually state it - the Kingdom of God started with Christ himself and has been here ever since.

 

I am not missing anything. he is construing Papal words and statements as to fit his position - the future coming of the Kingdom of God which he sees BEFORE the Last Judgement and because he is placing it before and as a future event, even if he does not mean it literally, it is still millenialism, though a little adjusted - and therefore a heresy.

It is not the event interpretation per se, it is also the time frame one puts it in which matters - in order to fit with Cathechism it has to be both before the Last Judgement and NOT the future from NOW

 

Well, most of the confusion stems from the colored text here (and I don't profess to know enough to add to the debate). I guess people surmise that Satan is still deceiving the nations now, so therefore the symbolic 1000 years must be a future event or time (yet is a distinct "first ressurrection" according to the text):

Revelation 20

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Thousand Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended.[a] After that he must be loosed for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.
Satan’s Doom

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

The text has been interpreted and numerous times - that is how all those confusing names which represent different explanations appeared - first it was chialism/premillenialism/millenialism/millenairism and amillenialism/ realized milleanialism - the last is accepted by Catholic Church and was accepted by Nicea council already, then systematized by St.Augustine and is what I stated above - considers this chapter of Revelation as already happening and started after Jesus Christ Ascended to Heaven - so from ~ 30 A.D. is going throughout all the centuries and is represented by Christ's reign as a Kingdom of God through the Church and Sacraments.

Considering it not yet present and only to happen in the future - was condemned already THEN, in Nicea - and later as well ( I've been reading on the subject for the last 2 days ))) - so no matter how one phrases it today ( as Mark does), if you refer to it as a future event - it is a heresy of modernized millenialism.

 

That is NOT true.

 

Jon,
Mark Mallet in that "Letter to Pope Francis" actually took quite a few quotes from my book and twisted them to fit his thesis. If you read my book you will see it is absolutely crazy to suggest the popes are proclaiming a coming millennial reign. trust me, I have read thousands of papal addresses speeches etc over many years and never once have I found a teaching to back up this theory.It is the final coming of Jesus we are heading for.
www.divinemercypopes.com

 

I don't know much about Mark Mallett, and am not defending his eschatology. I've only read a few things on his blog over the past year (Others on this forum regularly post his writings). I thought it was important, though, to at least be accurate about what he is saying since it became a topic here (and I also thought it was coincidental that he happened to post on this topic at the same time the discussion occurred here).

This whole thread erupted out of a few thoughts of his I found on another site in which he attempted to parallel some events at the end of Christ's life with events the body of Christ will also experience that may have connection to Garabandal and Fatima prophecies.

NOTE: I didn't see any citations of your book in that article. It doesn't appear that quotations were taken from your book.

 

I don't think that is very charitable Stephen. Its not like you own the quotes of the Popes. In the messages locutions.org, which we have been watching and discussing because the Spiritual director is such a well known Priest and happens to be Mark Mallett's spiritual director's ---SPIRITUAL DIRECTOR----this TIME OF EVANGELIZATION ETC. is getting muddled in with the ERA OF PEACE ETC. There are now so many names for what is coming it isn't even funny!! THIS IS WHAT THE SEER SAID:

Jerusalem is the center of God’s plan. He will use that city venerated by Israel, Catholicism and Protestantism, to unite all three faiths and initiate a special era of religious unity and worldwide evangelism.

This 'time' is going to be a 'time' of coming back to God before it all hits the fan....a LAST CHANCE--before the boat leaves...the time of grace ends....as St. Faustina puts it. THEN....ONCE ALL WHO ARE SUPPOSE TO BE ARE WITHIN THE ARC---which is the heart of the Mother---Then the persecution will come big time.

This has to be the time--this SPECIAL ERA OF RELIGIOUS UNITY when the miracles and conversions happen. This has to be the huge --PUSH to conversion our Lady speaks about so often. Because ONLY THEN will those who are converted be able to give their lives wholeheartedly and without abandon to the Lord for PENANCE FOR THE WORLD....our Lady's children will be martyrs and will also be saved for the coming of the HEAVEN AND THE PURIFICATION OF THE EARTH--which Fr. Gobbi speaks about. This is the Heaven come down to Earth that you are speaking of. Many visionaries right now are seeing this. This NEW EARTH--purified and back to its natural state--freed from harm and sin that has laid it to waste.

I have seen this new earth. I had a vision in Ukraine. I saw a landscape that was fields and fields of brilliantly colored flowers and EVEN THE AIR SMELLED PURE AND CLEAN....I saw a home with a white picket fence and a tended garden with a vineyard. I literally was flying and looking down. There were magnificent Churches in the distance and there was a peace I've NEVER FELT BEFORE.

THERE WILL BE PROTECTED PLACES. Maria Esperanza who's cause has gone forward for Beatification spoke about the times that we will live in as a 'more agrarian society' BUT she says that there will be inventions that will come about that will be 'amazing' that will heal people. 'Light' and 'Sound' will play a huge part and people will have knowledge that we did not possess before, or that we 'lost and now have been given it back. A preternatural knowledge.'

I know priests who have seen the Earth also as 'renewed'. New Mexico as a rain-forest. Deserts blooming with life and green. All will live for God in a 'heavenly gaze'. Our Lady is not here to just say the 'boat is leaving --get on it or else'....she is saying...JESUS IS COMING...get READY ---HIS MOTHER IS HIS LAST DITCH EFFORT FOR ALL OF HUMANITY. IF WE DISS THE MOTHER--WE ARE IN BIG TROUBLE. ITS AS SIMPLE AND AS HARD AS THAT. ITS OUR LADY WHO WILL FIGHT THE BATTLE AND she is going to use the Holy Father --Pope Francis! Satan uses force---God uses humility....we have to do what Don Bosco said---LOOK TO THE HOLY FATHER TO GUIDE US TO OUR LADY AND THE HOLY EUCHARIST (Jesus!).

 

Jon,
No you didnt see my book cited. He didnt want to acknowledge where it came from because otherwise people might want to read it and see the truth.
Marti,
Charity and truth go together. You in particular are aware of the circumstances surrounding his post and how many new quotes appeared. Of course I would never suggest I own those quotes, but to try and change their meaning to suit a theory which is at best dubious is not great.

 

This is still insufficient to explain how, yes, it was and is already happening since pentecost, but how and when does it reach this level:

...And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended.​

​

The deception of the nations never ceased, and is peaking now since 1914. Describe a way in which you can say that scripture prophecy has been or is being fulfilled.

 

Well, that is a totally different question - if we want to look WHEN, I do actually agree it has been peaking since 1914. But this has nothing to do with the future coming of the Kingdom of God as it is defined by millenialists(literal or modified, does not matter). That was my whole point in the discussion - we are in a pre-Last Judgement Times, and there is no space to fit the millenium as expected future event.

Our times are just preceding the Last Judgement - even if it is postponed for some time because of the faithful.

The thousand years of restraining the Satan is the time from Pentecost to (probably) the beginning of the last century. As a totally personal speculation I would think that the unleashing the satan was after the Fatima request to consecrate Russia was not fullfilled - and soviet union aka communist Russia was able to persecute millions of faithful and spread it's errors throughout the world.

But even another earlier time is possible - the time of the French Revolution, when the persecution of the Church modern-like style occured first after centuries of Church's triumph.

 

As one who thought an era of peace would be granted to the world [Fatima], I was amazed by your research Stephen into the teachings of the Pope on this issue. If what you say is true and I do trust your research is thorough then I will have to change my mind! Because, if we say we are Catholic then we have a duty to be informed by the Magisterium and the teachings of the Popes.

So, you are 100% sure no Pope has ever written about an era of peace?

 

Yes 100% and in my research I asked Cardinal Karl Josef Becker who has worked in the CDF for years and a professor at the Gregorian University in Rome. I asked him specifically about the theory of an era of peace (saying I was writing totally against the idea) He replied saying " we can never accept millennial theories"

 

Thanks for the prompt reply. I am amazed by this and shocked to a degree as I had in my thinking an era of peace from Fatima of at least a few decades if not a few centuries. But if no Pope has mentioned an era of peace I am going to have to change my eschatology in light of this.

Do the Popes indicate that there is some kind of timeline is all of this?

There are certain events that must occur before the end of time??

For example, there is a great persecution and martyrdom mentioned in the Book of Revelations.
Some believe there will be a second Pentecost.
The conversion of the Jews to Christ must happen.
The unity of all Christians 'Father that they might be one'.
The Antichrist is foretold by all accounts an individual as opposed to the spirit of an age.
The return of Jesus in Judgement.

I think the Antichrist comes right near the end of the world so have left that as the penultimate event before the return of Jesus.

It could take centuries for all of this to unfold?
Where does the Chastisement predicted at Fatima/Akita fit in?
Do you believe Stephen that there will be an Illumination/Warning given to the world?
So many questions!

 

A couple of comments ... firstly, on Mark Mallett's post, my impression was that he was basically working pretty closely off Joseph Iannuzzi's 'Splendor of Creation' (which he has quoted elsewhere) as his main recent theological source.

Secondly, there is evidently a genuine theological disagreement going on here between two interpretive lines represented by Stephen on one hand and Iannuzzi-Mallett-Miravalle et al. on the other (for what it's worth, my personal view is that the second group has the advantage on points). I don't really see how this is going to be solved given that both camps refer to many of the same statements but interpret them differently.

So - how about an 'agree to disagree' truce? On one hand, of course Stephen's statement that 'it's the Second Coming we're headed for' is correct in the ultimate sense. Even among the 'era of peace' camp nobody to my knowledge is being dogmatic about how long the 'Eucharistic reign' or period denoted by analogous expressions may last (after all, in the Lord's sight, a thousand years is as a day and a day a thousand years). But on the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of evidence in favour of a reading of Scripture suggesting that there may be some dramatic twists and turns before we reach that point, one which does not exclude a time of great evangelization, the New Pentecost (which some of course claim is already in progress) and mass conversion.

My concern is that in arguing over what surely has to be regarded as a disputed question we may be missing the deeper spiritual challenge here - how to live faithfully and to witness to the world in the light of the imminent prospect of Divine judgment, whether one follows Stephen's scheme of the Second Coming or the notion of an Illumination of Conscience/possible Chastisement (Lord help us ...) preceding the Era of Peace. Is that a question where we can come to a consensus?

 

I am up for respectful dialogue in a spirit of openness and learning

Time will end with the end of Christ in glory the final definitive second coming. Could be centuries if not millennia to go yet?

What we are discussing is what happens in between. I am open to persuasion but I think it is important to take on board what the Popes say and the magisterial teaching of the Church. The problem is that the Church appears to teach only a few things on this - the Catechism only gives a brief synopsis [so are we left to saints & private revelation to fill in the gaps?].

The Church's ultimate trial
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581