How interesting that we have gotten into this topic at this time. I went to Church Sunday and attended the RCIA class afterward with my friend who is going through it. The topic was prayer. Instead of having a focus on devotions and the Rosary and traditional prayers of the church there was an intense talk about centering prayer. We apparently have four separate groups at our Parish for this but none that focus on the Rosary and our church does not have any organized adoration times. I started thinking about it and realized that when Mary comes to visit she doesn't say- please do 20 minutes of center prayer. She says please pray the Rosary or the Devine Mercy or the Our Father, etc. etc. We have all been taught by the best to do these prayers- why are we listening to someone whose faith was so week he couldn't stick with his own religion? That sounds rather harsh I know. I do sometimes just sit with God- but I don't need a mantra- if I did I would say the rosary and go there with it. I think too many have been led away from the Rosary. All these people in these four groups in the past would spend their time praying in groups the Rosary on behalf of those in purgatory and a multitude of other needs- now they sit in silence for themselves. I do not disparage those who sit with God and enjoy his peace- but it should not replace the importance of praying on behalf of those who need us. Sorry- that was a strong reaction I know- but I'm very devoted to those in purgatory (knowing I'll likely join them someday!). I feel the loss of my own parish's emphasis on true prayer- those that we were taught by God and Mary herself. forgive my frustration! I don't mean to bring anyone down. I should start a Rosary Group, and just be quiet. LOL
I don't eman to imply Kathleen, of course there is anything wrong with contemplative prayer. The difficulty comes but when we leapfrog over emditative prayer and try to breeze right on through into contemplative prayer without Christian meditaive practise. This is because Christian prayer and spirituality centres on the person of Christ. Eastern religious practise does not. But there is really a whole list of reasons why Eastern esoteric practises cannot be transposed into Western usage. For instance there is the cross. It is no accident that the cross sits on every set of rosary beads...For the East the Cross is an obstacle, for Catholics it lies at very centre of our spiritual understanding and path. For the East suffering is an illusion that must be overcome. For the Catholic it is the very doorway to heaven. 1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, The living breathing Word of God: Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path The bread of life... John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Good comments, Kathleen. You are right. We shouldn't replace prayers like the rosary with this for sure. It is a self-centered kind of prayer when people are not doing it correctly, I think. And it is not true contemplative prayer, as I see Padraig is illustrating. I think you should always be in front of the cross or the Blessed Sacrament, or with a cross in-hand (as on a rosary in the hands) so we don't forget what we are contemplating. Sometimes, when I am in a quiet mood, or tired, or just feeling kindof numb for some reason, I will sit in what I would call contemplation, holding the rosary, wrapped in my hands. Not praying it, but just holding onto it, like it brings some comfort just being there in my hands. Like I am offering up something by holding it, feeble as that is, but it feels like it's something anyway. My mom loves to silently pray the rosary as soon as we get to church and into the first part of Mass. She can't hear very well anymore so it is her way of starting it off. I don't like to do that, but I do enjoy just holding it for a while at the start of Mass... Sorry I have been so quiet on this subject after my first responses. I have not dropped out. I guess I am contemplating my answers to all these posts :wink: ...
Honestly- they said nothing about being in front of the blessed sacrement while doing this complemplative prayer. We had a one hour lecture on it and there was no mention, so I am assuming they don't even do it in the church itself. They way they describe it is they sit in a circle together and say their word or picture Jesus's face (I'm not saying this is bad- just describing how it is limited) and be with God. I would have said nothing if they did this in front of Jesus Himself- what a wonderful Adoration that would be. We don't have Adoration at our church except for the fridays of Lent. I totally agree there is nothing wrong with it- I do enjoy it but it is more for me and my relationship with God- a form of worship and thanks and just spending time with our father in relation- I get that, but it has apparently replaced something very important in my own church so I'm concerned about that. I have been to small churches all over the state and found the Rosary being said before Mass- how beautiful that experience is for me, who does not get that experience otherwise. Its always interesting how the grass is greener sometimes. I have all the contemplative groups I want- I can achieve the state of contemplative prayer through the Rosary, so I don't worry about adding those groups on to my busy schedule. I would rather pray the rosary in a group setting to get the maximum benefit for those whom I am praying for. I am not disparaging contemplative prayer- but rather indicating that it has replaced something in my church and I find that odd. I'm confused by the 70's revolution of the church and what we have left behind. I wish I had something that I do not. Its a strange loss considering we are in the Catholic Church. Pray, pray,pray Love this line of discussion but... I'll stop talking on this now- sorry!
Kathleen, You have mentioned this before, that your church took out so much of the traditional and has inserted so much of the "new". That reminds me, if you need more salt, let me know, I am having a bunch of it blessed sometime in the next few days. The rosary is prayed before many of our Masses. Our new priest actually has a holy hour at 7 am, before the 8am Mass, every weekday! The rosary is prayed in the last half of the holy hour. Beautiful. Too bad only about 8 people are there to do it with him. I don't go as often as I could, something I need to work on. But I know it is there... My attitude since finding this forum and learning about all the "stuff" that has gone by the wayside, but is actually still there - is so different than it was even 10 years ago! I used to think the Church was "adapting" in positive ways back then. Now I see it differently. I think that contemplative prayer is caught up in that. I have heard a couple of priests talk about it in a traditional, spiritual sense. The centering prayer is an attempt to do it in a "modern" way it seems, but like the rest of the modernization that has happened, when it is applied, something is lost in the process. It sounds like you would be much happier in a different parish. We may have talked about this before, have you considered moving to a different church? I must say that I am better at silent contemplation than I ever was before. But like I mentioned, I put myself in a special place, in front of a Monstrance, or in a place like the grotto at Notre Dame, or the chapel at Marytown. And usually I have a rosary in my hands, if I am not praying it, it is there helping me in my silence..."the classroom of silence" as Matthew Kellly puts it.
Thanks for the salt offer! I did use it to bless my property line and everthing inbetween. Its been a good period in our home as a result. I never realized how much the blessing of your home can help- as well as prayer everday, until I went to Florida with my family for the holidays. While there we stayed in a lovely little condo with my family and parents. due to the disruption of my routine I got a bit lax in my prayers- just fitting a little bit in here and there but not much Rosary or formal prayer. The first night there, I had most aweful nightmare- I wont describe but I can promise you , the level of sickness of it did not come from my own brain. I woke in the middle of it and immediately knew I needed to pray and drive a demon out of our rooms. My daughter later shared that she had also had an aweful nightmare that same night. The rest of the stay was lovely and full of joy. I'm generally oriented towards God, but I think there is a special power and a focus in the formal prayers that you need to maintain your life. The formal prayers remind you to Thank God and Ask for his protection from evil. I obviously was just "being" with him and not remembering to ask for his protection. Ok- here is a funny question. I had blessed my house with the holy oil from the shrine. Now, many months later, there is mold growing in some of the little crosses I put on my windows. Can I leave it until spring to clean and redo? I know I get hung up on the silliest stuff. Another question- I let God's name slip from my tongue when upset after someone almost hit my car wtih their's. Not really an excuse but I don't do it normally. I'm sick today with a fever and can't attend confession. My kids need to go to, but they have verbally appologized for their sins, said prayers about it. Can we go to church tomorrow and take communion? Or should we hang back. I get confused sometimes by people who don't go regularly- some are more loose in opinion than others. Any thoughts? Kath
Well here's my two cents forward for what it worth. Yes its fine to wipe off the mouldy crosses. They are past their sell by date. :wink: Everything has its time and its place: KJV Matthew 12:3-4 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4. How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? As for communion I would say only not go if you are in mortal sin. Taking the Lords name in vain wouldn't count in my book as mortal unless it were done with deliberate malicious intent,, such as Satanists do in their rites. A mortal sin is a really, really, serious buisness and would never be done without full deliberation in my book. Jesus wants us to come to Him a billion times more than we could ever wish to come ourselves. It would hurt Him if you stayed away. "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly." (1 John 5:16-17).
I love talking to you. As you can see I was not well raised in the church and sometimes my concerns are so elemental. Thanks- I'll wipe off the mouldy cross and pray for continued protection. Now my son is sick too, so we may be going to confession next week and preparing properly for mass anyway. Thank you for the bible verses- that truly makes me feel better. Connie- you had asked me if I would prefer a different church. yes and no I know which is more like what I want but it is across town in the old section and has no children's programming. I honestly love our priests and our nun who run our church- I need to do a better job supporting their efforts. Its the church culture of the people that is the problem. I'm going to try to attend adoration time over lent and start within my own church the good habits that I want them to bouey for me. Someday I'll have the strength to ask about saying the rosary before masses and see if there might be a group there willing to do it with me. I'm such a chicken sometimes about committing to more than what I'm doing for fear I'll flop, but I'm sure God will help. Thanks again for the good advice you all, Kath pray,pray,pray
I suppose prayer at this point can be compared to riding a wild horse (not that I've ever ridden one, thank God :lol: :wink: } But up to this point the person who prays has felt him/herslef to have been in charge of things and this can give a sense of well being of organising of giving time and place to God. While the soul may not actually come out and say it, he she can feel pratty good about themselves and the way things are going. Which is always dangerous ground. I think there is nothing so dangerous to the spritiual journey as any feeling of , 'having it made', of 'making it'. We all are victims to pride and de is pure poison to spiritual endeavour. All is gift, pure gift, all we are doing is little children reaching out our arms to take these gifts. But it is so very human , so very, very man to imagine we have somehow earned our way and this feeling of being in control is very much coupled with this. The wild horses part of this for me came with falling into raptures and ecstasies over which I had little control. I was really very scared that this might happen were other people might see it. Especially when being up at the altar recieving holy communion were other people might see it. I am not, by the way suggesting that ecstsies and raptures are part of everyones natural path to prayer. Far from it, they were simply part of my own path and testimony to the bodies inability to handle the huge graces being given. If you look at a fire , a fire can burn underground in a volcano with no external signs at all. So we cannot see it or know it is happening. It can also burn above ground in say, a forest fire with the most astonishing sgns. So we may be more impressed with the forest fire although in fact the fire and heat of the underground lava is a million times more powerful. So with the actions of the fire of the Holy Spirit in the soul, buring like a fire, wether or not it gives external signs or not is unimportant to the strenght of the action. But St Teresa of Avila says that there are three graces of prayer: 1. The grace of prayer itself. 2. The grace of understanding prayer. and.. 3. The grace of being able to describe prayer to others. ...and I think thie fact that my own entry into the forest fire kinda prayer of Union does help me to understand and describe the actions of the Holy PSirit at this point in prayer. However raptures and ecstasies should not so much be taken as a sign that the soul is strong than that the body is weak. As a general rule I would say its is very better if the fire burns deep underground without signs for several reasons. Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Oh that's all? I was just really enjoying what you were writing and it was like the end of a good movie when you didn't see the end coming at all. I hope there's more soon.
] The reason why I compare prayer at this point is that up to this point we have felt in control, but here God starts to really show His real intentions and His real intentions are that He wants not 10% or 50% or 90% of our love, He made us for Himself and He WANTS IT ALL. 'You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you." St Augustine
I am reading too Padraig. I know I dont contribute much these days but I do read and this reflection on prayer is well worth reading. Thank you. Mary
Padraig - this post is pure amber nectar for the soul. Should be cut & pasted into a PDF e-book - any editors on the forum who could do this?
Thanks for reading, nice to know I am not alone as I write. I am hoping to put it in book form someday.
How many people when they date for the first time know where this will lead them? Especially if it is to lead them to the altar. It is the same with prayer; when we start the journey we have no idea how many doors we must past through and have no real idea that it will lead...if we are faithful either in this life, or afte purgatory union with God in the life to come. For as St Paul says: 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. If we were to go on a first date with someone and they were to ask us to marry them right away we would probably think them mad. Similiarly with prayer, God does not reveal to the soul the end point of prayer, this spiritual marriage until the soul is ready to recieve the news . Yes metnally at some level the soul may know from reading that God asks for everything, but this is not the same at all from knowing in the heart what God is asking, ..and the deepening of this knowledge of the depths of Gods need and our need for God goes on through life and into eternity. LOve carving deeper and deeper spaced in our heart like a mighty river seeking spaces for its mighty flow.
It occurs to me that referring to God, ''Speaking to us' in prayer may be confusing. For when we use the word, 'Speak' we will at once think of how people speak to us in ordinary evertyday life. ..and unless in very remarkable cases indeed God does not normally speak to His Children here on Earth in this way ,for we walk by faith. 'For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). However look at a baby in his mothers womb. What does the baby hear? He hears the beating of his mothers heart, long and clear and constant and the beating of her heart is the drum beat of love..and to the baby the grounding of its universe as it is told over and over, I am here, I am your mother and I love you'. Such is the basic experience of ture prayer , the heart of God being the Holy Spirit constantly reassuring us in the Womb of Prayer I love you, I love you , I love you' . This is the great Universal constant of the Chritian life of prayer as we are recreating by degree after degree into the image of Christ as Spouses of the Holy Spirit and children of the Father into the flaming furnace of love that is the Most Blessed Trinity.. Now there is nothing wrong with the voice of God, He shouts His love in the painted sky, He cries it in the stars, the foamy waves sing it, the rain drops carry the news, the winds His caress, day unto day takes up His message.... Psalm 19[a] For the director of music. A psalm of David. 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. 3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. 4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun. 5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. 6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth So there is nothing wrong with God's voice which sings in our hearts, but there is something worng with our hearing, for we, poor sinners have seperated ourselves from the Universal Song of Love that is the very voice of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
