If a Lutheran goes up to receive the Body and Blood of Christ and does not believe it to be the Body and Blood of Chirst (and which of them do?) how can he recieve the Body and Blood of Christ worthily if he does not believe? ..and what difference does it make if he feels fine or does not feel fine about doing do ??? The Truth is not a subjective relaity (I think, I feel) but an objective reality, as placed before his eyes by the Catholic Church. Effectively the Pope is encouraging people to make sacriligeous communions. Worse he is encouraging priests and others to take part in this sacrilege. Worse he is encouraging the entire Church to think this is fine. Worse he is placing himself above the Teachings of the Church, Scripture, Canon Law and basic Moral Law. It is simply appalling.
Don't simply believe me on this, wait and see how the Cardinals and Bishops react to this.....there will be the sound of blown gaskets right across the Church.
Indeed, but exactly the same can be said about a Catholic who does the same thing. But many Lutherans do believe and Pope Francis is clearly speaking of such a person. Also, we shouldn't forget that Luther did believe in the real presence.
ok there is a BIG part of this quote missing.. RIGHT before this, immediately before he said this, he said "i would never dare give permission to do this, because it's not my competence. " completely changes when you read this WHOLE thing... Am I wrong and misunderstand? https://twitter.com/roccopalmo/status/665943461917536256
I don't think this changes the whole thing. The Pope is merely pointing out here that he cannot change canon law (himself) so he cannot formally give permission but he is suggesting to the Lutheran lady that she should discern herself whether or not to receive Holy Communion.
In other words Canon Law is irrelevent if the Lutheran Lady thinks she can do, she can do it. A nudge and a wink. The back door again. Everything by the back door, the nudge and the wink.
Actually, no, it's even more schizophrenic than that. Right after he says, "I would never dare give permission to do this, because it's not my competence," he goes on to contradict Tradition by saying, "think about it, pray about it, if your conscience is clear, go right ahead, I'm not going to stop you." If he believes in the Real Presence then he has a moral obligation to refuse him or stop him. So he lays out the orthodox teaching then immediately contradicts it, saying he's not competent to allow it but he is not going to stop it. He doesn't have the option to allow it. He must stop it. In effect he is saying 2000 years of Catholic teaching was in error and he is correcting it. But if 2000 years of Catholic teaching was in error why be Catholic?
Exactly some truths, some principles are non negotiable. Not open to nudges and winks, the the back door. As Archbishop Fulton Sheen said , we must tolerant of people and intolerant on Principles. When we say to someone , 'Go ahead if you feel yourself its fine, its fine with me', we've thrown our principles to the wind. We don't really believe in them ourselves. The Back Door again. Always the Back Door.
That's heresy, a clear contradiction of 2000 years of Catholic teaching. If that teaching has been wrong for 2000 years, then Christ lied when He promised to lead the Church to all Truth, and we believe in vain.
It is heresy. It certainly is, there can be no doubt about it. What is more it is very sneaky and dishonest.
No, padraig, Pope Francis is definitely not that sort of person! The crucial point here is that Canon Law is a man-made law. God's law comes first. Pope Francis believes that the Lord wants believing Christians to receive Him in Holy Communion because that is what He asks of us in Scripture. Francis cannot give that permission but the Lord can.
It is as though the Pope is being two people at the same time, one guy the Pope is saying, 'Well as Pope I can't say yes'. But then the other guy saying, 'But for myself personnlly sure go ahead if you yourself think its fine, its fine with me'. But that's not how things work. He is not two people , he is one person, the same as you or me..and when he goes before the Judgement Seat of God he'll find out in short order that he is not two people, but one.
i ask you this "in your lifetime, have you ever participated in the Holy Eucharist, with sin" Does that mean you are excommunicated or in the big picture did it lead you closer to God. I understand...i know most of you have become great theologians and do not participate with sin...but I would bet every single one of us have participated the Holy Eucharist stained by sin at one time or the other. It comes down to the debate of full knowledge or in brians terms invincible ignorance. Time is short...its time to save souls one at a time. Everyone has a stone up in the air ready to throw...the sad thing is, we are no better then the Lutheran woman. May Gods Will be Done
Heresy. So Jesus is going to short change the Church by giving permission to what the Church itself refused and refused for 2000 years? ? Does Christ contradict Himself? Is Christ divided?
2000 years of Church teaching dumped in a few sentences. All previous Popes wrong, but now Francis gets it right. Funny old world, funny old Church.
Again, then why are they not joining the Catholic (or even the Orthodox) Church?!?! Actually the woman did not even mention her beliefs on the Real Presence. She just said that it hurt her and her husband not to be able to share in the Lord's Supper. It's really not too hard to do something about it if that is the case. Nothing is stopping them from being united except their own wills.
Yes, it is quite bizarre. My only hope now is that he made the statement out of weakness, feeling put on the spot. Not that this would be a good excuse, but better than a deliberate denial of Catholic teaching. This whole thing is even worse now because the woman didn't even state that she believed in the Real Presence (that I could see) but just "felt bad" that her and her husband couldn't receive together. In effect, the Pope is doing her a great disservice in suggesting that it's possible that she could receive Communion without "discerning the Body."
This is true, MC, but Jesus is gentle and does not force us to do anything. He would rather all Lutherans came to believe what many already do. The Lord is asking Christians to unite in humility.
And how many "good Catholics" will not only buy it hook, line and sinker, but castigate and condemn those who point out he has no authority to do so.
