How true FatimaPilgrim,..how true!!! Where is the love and charity for those of us who are trying to hold on to Tradition? Fatima a faithful Catholic educated in doctrine through the late great Fr. Hardon, was on this forum much longer than myself and was banned without so much as the courtesy of a warning, right Padraig? SteveD is a very intelligent rock solid Catholic who does so much good in the Holy Souls Apostolate, he is very devoted to Our Lady and does every 1st Saturday in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart. Much of his time is given to adoration. All he did was pass on some disconcerting article's that he didn't even write. Jerry, also a longtime member of the forum,..who hardly ever chimed in was discarded for his opinion,..I think most of us were born with two cheeks,..what would Jesus do? Mac a good father to several children (all girls) is also a rock solid devout Catholic who practices the Catholic faith in all aspects, chose to leave because of the intolerance that is manifesting itself. Two new members also left because of the hypocrisy. Do you think it is only a few who are concerned about which direction the Church seems to be heading? What do you think those big changes could be? It is true the Pope has the keys, but they were paid for with Christ's Blood. Let us not forget the Pope is not Jesus Christ, but only His representative with a free will. Holy Orders obliges us to give due reverence to all priest's, regardless of the choices they make, and it is and should be possible to point out error, without attacking the person. I think many who come to this forum are seeking support after being away from the Church for so long and are seeking the truth of the Catholic faith which contain the "Four Marks of the Catholic Church" http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/4marks.pdf This forum has lost some good faithful Catholic's that had much to contribute. Thank you FP, I hope that decade does some good. Padraig if you want to boot me also because of my opinion,..so be it.
I guess the Blessed Mother is spot on, we need to pray, and then pray even more. Help me Lord and all others to be humble and true to your call.
Fr. Z is highly educated and intellectual. Maybe you don't get him or his sense of humor. Maybe you haven't followed him or known him all that long. Maybe you don't read his blog on a regular basis and watch his measured responses to all points of view. I have. Like you and I, Father Z is entitled to his opinion regarding certain matters and unless a post speaking against the Pope is highly uncharitable he doesn't delete them from his blog. Instead he addresses those posts with his own comments. He allows his followers to form their own opinion and express fears and concerns. He acts as a good priest acts, with charity and clear and deep knowledge of the Church. Is he perfect? Undoubtedly not. But neither are you and neither am I. Take the log out of your own eye. If you think his unique ministry over the internet these past 20+ years has been an easy one trying to strike a balance between the trads and the liberals who attack him like hyaenas, you need to think again.
The problem I have is that he mocks the Pope's teachings in Evangelii Gaudium and also profits from this at his online store. In this teaching the Pope criticises a certain type of error found amongst some conservative Catholics (self absorbed promethean neopelagians). Instead of treating this with the seriousness it deserves he denigrates this part of the apostolic exhortation. I do not find this amusing but rather disrespectful to the Holy Father. Fr Z indeed undermines the very essence of the Pope's correction with his catch-phrase 'I am a self absorbed promethean neopelagian and proud of it'. He obviously has a problem with this aspect of the Pope's teaching. http://www.cafepress.com/frzsstore/10934579 http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/new-...orbed-promethean-neopelagian-and-proud-of-it/ He is also selling products emblazened with 're-elect Ratzinger'. http://www.cafepress.com/frzsstore/9823983 Evangelli Gaudium is a serious teaching for our times pointing out the errors that some conservative Catholics make: This worldliness can be fuelled in two deeply interrelated ways. One is the attraction of gnosticism, a purely subjective faith whose only interest is a certain experience or a set of ideas and bits of information which are meant to console and enlighten, but which ultimately keep one imprisoned in his or her own thoughts and feelings. The other is the self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity. (#94)
Garabandal, if you have charges you would like to level against Fr. Z perhaps you could address them to Fr Z directly and allow him to respond. That is the most honest and forthright thing to do. You may not like his answer but allow him to answer for himself... if you have the courage.
I am sure Fr Z would be much too busy to answer my email. I wish he would change the motto on his merchandise to 'I am glad I am not a self absorbed promethean neopelagian'. Then I would be tempted to buy a mug!
Fr. Z is highly responsive to queries. He posts on his blog on a regular basis. If you don't want to email him ask a question in his comments section at an opportune moment with your concerns. He will answer you. If he doesn't I would be surprised. Do you know the names he is called by and the threats he receives from liberals? I'm certain that mug is tongue in cheek. Ask him. Let him answer.
(a) Cardinal against Cardinal (as OLOGarabandal predicted) is not a problem for me. There is only one Cardinal I will finally look to and he wears white. (b) Pope against Pope is more difficult but given the present Pope's election was done validly and has never been contested to date that looks fairly clear. I am not aware of any conclusive or credible prophecies that say there will be an anti-pope (or anti Christ) until the actual end of the world but maybe I am wrong. (c) Pope versus Pope Emeritus. Unlikely. In any case the current Pope is the one with the charism given to Peter. Its about an office not a person. (d) We may of course be talking about a time when the present Pope is no longer with us. That could get messy... The College of Cardinals would be divided and may be unable to elect a valid successor. ie "no Pope" rather than "anti-Pope." (Would Pope Emeritus if still alive validly lead the Church if that is the case). They could "elect" rival successors. But let us cross that bridge when we come to it and live in faith. In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, but in all things charity.
Old sparky is always involved. It's up to you to determine when. Sometimes old sparky puts up fliers for black masses because he's getting bold. Sometimes old sparky gets those faithful to the Mother of God to turn on one another, priests and Pope Francis. Sometimes old sparky gets his way when good people get "offed" from various fora with smiley faces as accents.
QOP, You used Father Z as an example of how to criticize the Holy Father, and Garabandal has only answered as to why he doesn't appreciate his critiques. It's not necessary to send messages to every blogger we choose not to follow.
Don't. But Don't ask me to level a defense either. If you think someone is a bad priest or blogger or Pope... address them yourself. How's that? Too much for you?
davidtig...I feel this needs a honest response. I'm certainly no enemy of Pope Francis, I consider him a the legitamite Pope and as such I am a faithful Catholic. My question was simply...if a pope is fallible...then exactly what would it look like if I as a Catholic followed my conscious and did the contrary of what he says. I know immediately it raises a flag...but in light of historical truths....it is a question that must be asked. Is there anyone with a rational response as oppossed to a purely emotional response. P.S...this supposeded Verne guy...he doesn't add anything to the deposit of faith and of course "the chattering classes" are always denied authentic discourse by those who are threatened by it.
I understand that you and several people on the forum are upset right now, but I think it is certainly uncharitable and maybe bordering on calumny to accuse Padraig or anyone of helping the devil "get his way".
Never mind the question...I've answered it on my own. It would look something akin to the German Bishops. Of course... I addressed this question within the historical context of the" bad Popes". These times we have entered are unlike ant time in the past. So strike the question. As such...the Synod this fall may cause a schism...I think the greater threat comes from the conservative side. What ever happens...my banner will be with Pope Francis.
Popes are only infallible under certain conditions. Outside of those, it is possible for them to be wrong. We do not have to agree with everything a pope says, if he is not speaking ex cathedra.
We do, however, need to stay loyal to a validly elected Pope, including Pope Francis. I am withholding judgment and am trusting the Holy Spirit. I don't believe he will change doctrine. What I am worried about is rogue Bishops/Cardinals going their own way after the synod and twisting things to make it the interpretation go their way.
But really, worry is a waste of time. God is in charge. And he wants the Church, His bride, without spot or wrinkle. Between what we have now, and what he wants, the renovation will be brutal. We can't pray it away, but we can pray for God to make us Saints, and big ones, and quickly. The Catechism says: The Church’s ultimate trial 675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576 (769)
I don't believe the Keys of Peter and the promise made to him by Christ is all locked up in formal "ex Cathedra" definitions (of which there are actually very few). If it were maybe we would be justified in effectively ignoring the Popes in even their Ordinary Teaching role and think and interpret Tradition/Doctrine according to our favourite Cardinal or theologian on every point. But this "all or nothing" type thinking is not a healthy Catholic understanding of the charism we believe is given to the successor of Peter. For example, take the Assumption. Its not in Scripture but it is one of the very few formally defined Teachings of a Pope (though not without consensus or tradition behind him in this case). We all accept that teaching with docility of heart and mind if we are Catholic. Yet few Catholics seem to accept that Mary died before her Assumption. I find this very strange. It has always been held by Tradition continuously until a couple of hundred years ago when confused Catholics misunderstood the meaning of an Eastern feast called the "Dormition" (Eastern Catholics themselves certainly believe Mary died) and more recent Western art work concerning the Assumption (Mary is erect rather than supine as she ascends to heaven). The Pope's themselves (even to this day) have continuously taught that Mary died, despite the confusions of recent centuries by many of the faithful. The Encyclical that formally defined the Assumption states in numerous places that Mary died (though it is not part of the formal definition). This is what we could call an example of the "Ordinary Teaching" of the Papacy. Does it really have to be defined "Ex Cathedra" before humble Catholics will accept that Mary died?
This trial is mentioned in Scripture , especially in the Book of Revelation. One little section mentions the direct intervention of God , 'Less even the Just be lost'. This shows how bad things will get. The key to what will come lies , I believe, in the Vision of Pope Leo. http://www.michaeljournal.org/visionleo.asp Notice the devil talks specifically about destroying the Church; the Church is his key target, the Citadel. If he can destroy this it is his key to destroying all else. One key power asked over and over again in reports of Satanic sacrifice is the, 'the overthrow of Catholic priests' and 'The downfall of the Catholic Church'. We see this over and over again. The devil has had over a hundred years of great power to brew this up and now in our own times the brew is fit to pour. We will see it pour shortly, I believe. The prayer to St. Michael "Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who prowl throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen."
