A lot of interesting posts here. But the quote that garabandal made from Pope Francis' Evangelii Gaudium encyclical has amazed me. Sadly, I have to own up to not being a great reader of encyclicals so the quote is new to me. But now, having read it, I can fully see why the traditionalists are attacking the Pope, directly or indirectly. The truth is that the short paragraph (see it at http://motheofgod.com/threads/the-upcoming-synod.6000/page-6#post-61308 ) is a devastating criticism of the whole approach of many traditionalists to their faith. The Pope is not criticising individuals but is certainly criticising a way of thinking that is omni-present in so many blogs on the internet.
I agree with Padric 100% when it comes to Pope Francis, he has been chosen to be Peter the head of our church. May i remind you that the church is not a democracy it belongs to God, and wither we like it or not he will do things his own way, not your way not my way but his way. If decisions are made that we don't like or don't understand does not give us the right to criticise the Pope or say hurtful things about him it means we don't understand and we need to pray to the holy spirit for discernment. Where is the Faith of Our Fathers, we need a lot more praying and a lot less complaining because at the end of this his will will be done. If St Peter returned today you would be on your knees praying for his help to mediate between yourself and and God. Pope Francis is our Peter, disrespect him and you disrespect Peter. Pope Francis was chosen by God to lead his church respect his decision and have faith in his decision and defend your Pope he is going to need all our love and all our prayers before this is over.
Today is the 97th anniversary of the first Apparition at Fatima. How we need Our Lady today! View attachment 1942
Yeah, you are right. There are many things we must accept that have not been officially declared ex cathedra. So maybe what we are supposed to be learning from Pope Francis is that we who are conservative are wrong, and that we shouldn't care so much about doctrine, that we should just love everyone, not judge anyone and that is enough? I am not being sarcastic at all.....I am really serious, I don't know what to think anymore.
You are 100% correct. All you have to do is look at our most recent 2 Popes, Benedict and Francis. What, did God change His mind and say one thing through Benedict, and another through Francis after 2000 years of doctrine? Of course not. We must 100% stay loyal to our Pope, who is currently Pope Francis (Our Lady of Fatima, pray for our Pope Francis!). But they are human and there are nuances and personal opinions that they, as men, have. Benedict stressed doctrine, Francis is stressing forgiveness and love. But neither changed doctrine. Personally I think Benedict was a bit too rigid, and Francis is a bit too loose in his speech. That's their human charisms coming through. and they speak to all of we sheep. My personal opinion is that no, God didn't change his mind. But He saw that more and more of his sheep are wandering away so He's using Francis to get their ear, to try to bring them back into the fold. But that doesn't mean he is rejecting doctrine or rejecting conservative/traditionalists. It just means he's talking to that 1 sheep that wandered away and leaving us 99 alone (although truth be told, in today's world he's talking to the 99 that wandered away, not the 1s of us that have stayed in his flock).
Heidi, I would not think too much of all this. It is only in this age of social, INSTANT media, that a Pope's every word, thought, and action is being instantly broadcast. Those who are steeped in sin, and yet want the Church's blessing, have always been around, and will always try to confuse you. They have no interest in keeping themselves pure or entering the narrow gate. We must not worry about every little thing that is said or done by others, including the Pope and Cardinals, as we know the way....Jesus. If we feel confused, we need only go to the gospels and immerse ourselves, and if in doubt about a sin, DON'T. If worried about others sins, just pray and offer up for them. We already know for certain that people who practice sin will not be admitted to Heaven. They must REPENT and TRY very hard as we are doing not to ever sin again. Yes they will probably fall, and we will fall, but we will get back up and go to confession and praise God for His great mercy. We must never assume that because we follow the flock through a gate, that we will be admitted to the Banquet. God the Father tells us in scripture that the one man who did not have on proper wedding clothes was tossed out to the demons, and that we will all have an individual judgement. So anyway, my point is, just love Jesus, do NOT sin for His sake, and He will give you the grace to stand firm and love others in your life and help them to repent.
You are mistaken in your interpretation of what the Pope teaches in Evangelium Gaudium. The Pope did not say conservatives are wrong only that some conservatives are wrong in their thinking. The Pope is correcting an error because some have become Pharisaical in their thinking. Jesus also criticised the Pharisees for the way they used and abused doctrine. The Pope also criticised liberals in Evangelium Gaudium for having a subjective faith akin to worldliness.
I'll confess it if you think something I said bordered on calumny. But honestly the devil gets his way with all of us at various times or we wouldn't need Confession. I'm not sure why you think that isn't true... maybe you know many saints that don't stumble or sin or need confession.
Yes he does get his way with us many, many times and I know I certainly have the need for confession often, but cannot speak for anyone else including the saints. I'm certainly sorry if I misread your post but when you wrote: "Sometimes old sparky gets his way when good people get "offed" from various fora with smiley faces as accents." This appeared to reference Padraigs decision to remove members from this site and somehow connect that to old sparky getting his way. Again, if I misread your post, please accept my apology.
I don't think that Pope Francis criticised traditionalists at all in his encyclical? I think what he was attacking was legalism? Maybe it is a bit like the Pharisees in the Gospels in that they went on and on about the 'Law' says this and that but they implemented the law without any real justice or sense of charity to witnesses and the accused etc. In otherwords they were full of law but would laugh at you if you talked about justice. What I think is supposed to happen is that a person must have a sense of charity towards other humans, who are made in the image of likeness of God, and a strong sense of conscience about what is in the overall sense right and wrong and then the 'law' and obedience to Church authority becomes a golden reins placed on top of that. If you have law and Church obedience before those other qualities, or when the former are only nominal, then you have gone all wrong and will probably sin via a kind of judgementalism. The best example of this criticism of legalism comes from Padre Pio, for me anyway. I was told once by a friend of his that he was forbidden by the Church to give his gloves to any lay person, and that rule he obeyed of course but he gave his gloves to other friars knowing full well that they in turn would give them to people he knew wanted them, getting around the law of Church authority. You see what drove him on was a great conscience, which manifested itself in a great concern for human beings, many of whom might have travelled a big distance to see him and who he knew were not going to abuse whatever graces they received through the gloves, and that conscience was his primary motivation while abiding by Church authority and law was indeed there it was a golden thread running across the top of this primary motivation. Anyway thats what Pope Francis is getting at in his encyclical in my opinion...
You are very gracious but I was upset by the smiley faces when people were banned. It made me sad to see people banned and voluntarily leaving. Perhaps I misinterpreted the smiley face icons. I don't think Our Lady would smile at leaving our brethren behind and banning them for their POV. I don't like banning. I would prefer people engage because we all hold the same love of Our Lady and Our Lord in our heart, even if we have different POVs. I think temporary suspensions work best. If it gets to the point you must ban... so be it. I would rather err on the side of caution. It stirs up bad feelings. We must band together and do our best to support one another. We're actually all on the same side.
Just for the record, garabandal. Out of the blue Fr. Z wrote to me today. I have not spoken to him in many months. He said you came strongly to mind is everything okay? Well... it wasn't. Not to go into detail but don't ever say that man doesn't have Jesus in him. Out of the blue, there he was asking me if I was okay. Mind your tongue when it comes to him. He has one of the most popular blogs on the web and he is questioned and he answers all day long, but he found the time to find a little sheep today that wasn't okay.
I just finished reading and catching up on this thread. I have been busy and away this past week and in a way I am glad I was and missed a lot of this. Right now I have a lot of thoughts but really all that keeps coming to mind right now for me is a song to share with you because I think this forum needs it. Peace my brothers and sisters. Peace I wish for you!
It is not easy being moderator of a forum. Padraig is doing a perfectly fine job under the mantle of our Lady. Your criticism is a bit like me being invited into your home and then I tell you I am unhappy with the way that you run things in your own house. And I think you did misinterpret the smiley icon. It does not mean LOL but that he was happy with the decision.
Again your criticism is unfounded and you have put words in my mouth that I did not say. I did not say that Fr Z did not have Jesus in him. I did not criticise Fr Z as a priest. I am deeply concerned that he is selling merchandise that appears to mock a phrase from the Pope's encyclical which I think is mendacious. It is not humorous to mock any Catholic teaching that comes from the Pope. I will email him with my concerns.
It is very difficult being the moderator of a forum. I've belonged to enough of them over the past 25 years to know. If Padraig would like to ban me for being upset/sad at the bannings he can certainly do that given it IS his forum. If I misunderstood a smiley icon... my apologies to Padraig. That said, I believe in these times we must band together and try not to be so critical or fearful of other Catholics. We're all on the same side. I'm glad you decided to address Father Z yourself. That said, understand he has been a forum moderator and blogger for 20+ years. The attacks that come at him from all sides given the size of the forums he has moderated is something I wouldn't and couldn't endure. Maybe he needs to make a little joke sometimes, with his mug that offends you, given what he puts up with in terms of attacks. If he doesn't respond to you, I'll ask him myself "What's up with the mug?" Let me know
From an email from Steve; 'Cardinal Baldisseri, who recently 'came out' in favour of a change regarding Communion for divorced and remarried, has made a complete 'turnaround' and quoted his grounds for doing so, which I already knew - but he has apparently only now discovered (maybe I should be a Cardinal). Not likely, so what is going on? Has an even more eminent Bishop of the Church (of Rome) changed his mind and sent him out as a 'stalking horse'? http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/05/a-cardinal-backtracks/#comment-464553: “Regarding the possibility for the synod of bishops of changing the doctrine of the Church,” Cardinal Baldisseri said, “I underscore that the First Vatican Council’s document ‘Dei Filius’ affirmed that ‘understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.’” The cardinal then continued: “And I also remind you that John XXIII said in the inaugural speech of the Second Vatican Council [The address is called "Gaudet Mater Ecclesia", which I quote on this blog pretty often.] that ‘authentic doctrine … should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another.’”'
I can't help feeling that if Cardinal Baldisserri issued such a strong statement he must be concerned, very, very concerned . But as I say the Vatican is such a mystery to me. I try to look at it in a common sensed way. He just seems concerned about Doctrine being breached.
View attachment 1971 He seems to be a very important guy, with a key role in the appointment of Bishops for instance, I take this as a very good sign. Archbishop Baldisseri is the current Secretary General of the Synod of Bishops since his appointment was announced by Pope Francis on 21 September 2013. On 16 December 2013 he was appointed as a member of the Congregation for Bishops.[7] In January 2014 it was announced that he will be elevated to the cardinalate at the next consistory on 22 February 2014.[8] As announced, Lorenzo Baldisseri was created cardinal on February 22 with the title of Cardinal-Deacon of Sant’Anselmo all’Aventino. In May 2014 in an interview with Belgian newspaper De Standaard, Cardinal Baldisseri says it is time to update Church marriage doctrine, for example in connection with divorce, the situation of divorcees and people who are in civil partnerships. His comments will appear in an exclusive interview with the Christian weekly magazine Tertio, published on Wednesday. "The Church is not timeless, she lives amidst the vicissitudes of history and the Gospel must be known and experienced by people today," Cardinal Baldisseri says. "It is in the present that the message should be, with all respect for the integrity from whom the message has been received. We now have two synods to treat this complex theme of the family and I believe that these dynamics in two movements will allow a more adequate response to the expectations of the people", says the secretary general of the Synod of Bishops. [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Baldisseri
