Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Well, I hope I am on point,

Pope Francis began a three-nation Africa tour last week, and for good reason. Africa has the fastest-growing Catholic population on the planet, which is projected to reach nearly 350 million by 2050.

How Africa is transforming the Catholic Church - The Washington Post
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If we are just discussing growth in the Catholic Church, we've got it here.

I don't see how mentioning it is only 4 or 5 out of 100 Catholic Churches in the West that have these Latin Masses drawing in young persons is off point.

And this is why I wish last time, we had gotten an African Pope, African Cardinals tend to be conservative, so, that did not go the way it should have last time. We'd probably be in a much different state of affairs if that had happened.

So, no, I don't think my posts are wondering or reflect incoherent thoughts.

 

Well ...

mmm...the African Church is doing well..

and mmm ..Pope Francis is visiting there...

Is it because Pope Francis is visiting it , it is doing well?

Again you've lost me?

..and so..?

What has this to do with the Old Mass and Pope Francis wanting to throw it in the trash can?

Yet once again you've totally, totally, lost me?

 

I honestly fail to see where this great growth of the Latin Rite is, if people are boasting about it so much.

Per their own stats,

SSPX for example, General statistics about the SSPX - District of the USA

590 Priests in the US, active in 38 of 50 states.

The Archdiocese of Boston alone, over 1,000 Priests, 300 Churches. (1000 priests, this figure is hard to pen down, I've heard it is actually quite a bit higher, so this is a conservative estimate The Pilot. Boston Catholic Directory. Priests Search (thebostonpilot.com) ).

List of churches in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston - Wikipedia

Pope Francis should not have paid any attention to this difference with those Churches saying the Latin Mass, they are so few.

Boston had its big scandal, yes, 6% of the priests maybe acted in corrupt ways but that is enough to drive the church down unfortunately. But you'd have to prove these things did not happen before Vatican II; and I think there was some of this all the same.

And one can throw in the FSSP as a church recognized order, I doubt again, if we are talking about astounding numbers.

 

TinNM, is English not your first language? I just assumed so, because I think you said you're from South America, if I'm remembering correctly? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I just assumed your posts sometimes sound a bit strangely worded because English isn't your first language. I don't think you're as "all over the place" as it sometimes sounds.

I think I can see what you're trying to say. The TLM is a very small percentage of the Church right now. I guess what we're looking at is trends in growth. Are the numbers going up or down, and in what age groups? The fact of the matter is, where you find tradition, the numbers are on an upward trend, and where you find a laxness and liberalization of the Faith, the numbers are trending down. Especially in the young people age group. Now, that means that reverent, faithful Novus Ordo Masses have something to offer as well! I think the more beauty and tradition, the more there is to offer and attract. My personal opinion is that the TLM has the most beauty and tradition to offer. So it will continue to grow, as long as God allows. But so will the traditional, beautiful and reverent Novus Ordo Masses. Will they come together sometime in the future, with a revised Mass acceptable to all reverent and faithful Catholics? Will the Novus Ordo faithful eventually move over to the TLM? Time will tell.

 

This is Jasna Gora in Poland today, filled to overflow,



Do these great numbers of millenials attending the Latin Mass in the USA even surpass 500,000 any weekend? 250,000? I mean, others are pushing about how great it is, "oh, the youth are flocking to the Latin Mass." We may have as many as 60,000,000 churches in the US.

I think it's great but I don't think the phenomenon should be exaggerated either. Pope Francis really should not have even touched the situation in my opinion.

 

TinNH,

It should certainly encourage us in the West to see countries such as Poland, and the Philippines in the East, holding fast to the Faith. But speaking practically, in the West, one of the few demographic groups holding fast to the Faith are those attending the TLM. This is the focus and wonderment of this thread: why would Pope Francis "go out of his way" to suppress that which is bearing the fruit of faithful Catholics. It appears that he is seeking a uniformity in worship because he argues that the TLM is a counter productive rite that encourages disunity. That is the best face I can put on this debacle! He boggles my mind.

With this in mind, it would be great if you began a new thread pointing out the areas of the world where the Faith is growing strong, like Africa.

Safe in the Barque of Peter!

 

Not sure if this was posted or not but I'm really enjoying it. Good food for thought.

 

Since I have to serve at the nursing home tomorrow, tonight will be the last Holy Mass I will be assisting Fr. Schultz before his transfer. Will this be the final time we sing the Gloria as follows? Two versions below.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Gloria+sung+in+Latin



God be praised!

 

For further signs of going in the right direction: The very liberal church right next to my house got assigned a young priest 2 years ago who wasn't there long. But during the time he was there, the tabernacle was moved from the side chapel it had always been in to the main sanctuary, in the center behind the altar. It was also changed to a lovely golden tabernacle covered with angels and flanked by two icons of angels adoring Christ in the tabernacle. Before, the tabernacle had been merely a plain metal box.

Now there is a new pastor from India. And there are more changes coming. The sanctuary is being renovated, changed to a white stone wall instead of ugly wood slats and weird metal fixtures. Beautiful statues have been ordered from Italy to replace the banal wooden ones. The crucifix will now hang in the center of the sanctuary instead of weird banners.

In my uncle's church, which has always been very similar to the one near my house, a new pastor has arrived. The lay people who have been used to controlling the church are very displeased because he has made changes "without asking them first," such as bringing the crucifix to the center and ordering new statues from Italy.

Times are changing. These new priests coming in are resuming their rightful place as head of their parish and bringing beautiful and reverent changes.

Perhaps all is moving toward a more holy and beautiful future in the Church, but some places are still only in the beginning stages. Of course the devil will push back hard and we may be tempted to be distracted and discouraged by his attempts to tell us all is doom and gloom... We can't give in to that. He's losing. There are wonderful things in store for the Church, for ALL who are trying to faithfully follow the Truth. I don't know exactly what it will look like, but God does, so that's good enough for me!

 

Amen, and we know who wins.

 

I hope it is not the last time! This draconian motu proprio
Feels like a death announcement--a preparation for a funeral. Is this the "death" of the Church foretold by prophecy? Then the Reign of the Immaculate Heart cannot be far away.

 

I like how often, AED, you try to finish on a positive note!

Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!

 

There is much truth in your words.

 

I thought this over before I post this, just as an example of how the TLM has grown in the Archdiocese of Washington.
Before the year 2000, the Diocese set aside a small country parish in the boondocks of Maryland and the priest there said the TLM once a week on Sunday. About 20 or 30 people attended. When that priest retired, a younger priest who also was a naval officer was assigned there. There was a TLM once a week. Now, because of his love for the TLM, the parish has really grown in number. Old and young love the Mass. He offers the TLM 5 days a week and twice on Sundays. He offers the NO Vigil Mass on Saturday and at 9 am Sunday morning. Everyone is happy.
I see on his online bulletin that he is waiting for Cardinal Gregory to let him know if the TLM will be allowed to continue. He has asked for prayers that it will continue.
I do go to Mass there once in awhile but my husband and I are in our hometown parish with an awesome pastor. But I want the TLM to continue there, and continue to grow.

 

That's not a regular parish Mass. It's a place of pilgrimage. The shrine of Our Lady of Jasna Gora, Poland's National Marian Shrine in the care of the Pauline Fathers.. Not a regular NO parish. The Mass appeared to be offered Ad Orientem. They have a daily Latin Mass at 8 a.m. Traditionally in Poland, the month of August is dedicated to Our Lady.http://jci.jasnagora.pl/n56,August---Month-Dedicated-to-Mary-Mother-of-God

You seem to be missing the point that in what once were Christian countries in the West where the Faith is in freefall, the growing numbers of young people attracted to the traditional Liturgy are the most promising sign that all is not lost and that the Holy Spirit is protecting the Church. After five decades of suppression of the TLM with a corresponding increasing irreverence in the NO, it is amazing that there is any growth at all.

 

I am not quite sure what this is supposed to mean, I understand it is some sort of assault on Purple Flower, very inappropriate. I sometimes struggle to follow what you are trying to say.

 

Yes, don't take his word for it, I recommend to go and see and the Traditional Latin Mass for yourselves. No need for a calculator, we can get our own impression.

 

For your discernment: https://www.tldm.org/news6/statistics.htm

"Statistical decline of the Catholic Church since Vatican II...
"Already there is much discord in My Church upon earth. It saddens everyone in Heaven. And We are out in force now, going throughout the world seeking to set up armies of good children who will fight, to the bitter end if necessary, to save My Church upon earth. It is being destroyed. Just as rodents will burrow into a house, those who have evil natures are burrowing into My Church. We find it almost unrecognizable, My children. However, I will say this: I asked you to remain in your parish churches, not to judge by the actions of man.
"The institution itself, as set by Me, remains to be true; however, the cavorting and the banjos and the guitars and the musical interludes and the dancing are all created by satan. So you can understand that satan has entered now with his armies in full regalia, appearing as humans. However, they are demons in disguise, and they have one ultimate aim: to try to destroy My Church, the Roman Catholic Church, with the seat of Peter as the head." - Jesus, March 18, 1989

The following statistics are originally from Kenneth Jones' Index of Leading Catholic Indicators:

• Priests. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests--and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70. Right now there are more priests aged 80 to 84 than there are aged 30 to 34.

• Ordinations. In 1965 there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood, in 2002 there were 450, a decline of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

• Priestless parishes. About 1 percent of parishes, 549, were without a resident priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of U.S. parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

• Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700--a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

• Sisters. 180,000 sisters were the backbone of the Catholic education and health systems in 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000--and of these, only 21,000 will be aged 70 or under. In 1965, 104,000 sisters were teaching, while in 2002 there were only 8,200 teachers.

• Brothers. The number of professed brothers decreased from about 12,000 in 1965 to 5,700 in 2002, with a further drop to 3,100 projected for 2020.

• Religious Orders. The religious orders will soon be virtually non-existent in the United States. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 38 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. There were 1,148 Redemptorist priests in 1965 and 1,128 seminarians; in 2000 there were 349 priests and 24 seminarians. Every major religious order in the United States mirrors these statistics.

• High Schools. Between 1965 and 2002 the number of diocesan high schools fell from 1,566 to 786. At the same time the number of students dropped from almost 700,000 to 386,000.

• Parochial Grade Schools. There were 10,503 parochial grade schools in 1965 and 6,623 in 2002. The number of students went from 4.5 million to 1.9 million.

• Sacramental Life. In 1965 there were 1.3 million infant baptisms; in 2002 there were 1 million. (In the same period the number of Catholics in the United States rose from 45 million to 65 million.) In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms-----converts-----in 2002 there were 80,000. In 1965 there were 352,000 Catholic marriages, in 2002 there were 256,000. In 1965 there were 338 annulments, in 2002 there were 50,000.

• Mass attendance. A 1958 Gallup poll reported that 74 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1958. A 1994 University of Notre Dame study found that the attendance rate was 26.6 percent. A more recent study by Fordham University professor James Lothian concluded that 65 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1965, while the rate dropped to 25 percent in 2000.